Carly Ray Goldstein

Golf Conversations: Carly Ray, the last time I spoke to your Dad – a year ago – he mentioned that you were getting inquiries from colleges.

Carly Ray Goldstein: Yeah, I’m still deciding. We’re about to start visiting colleges. We’re going to figure it out pretty soon.

GC: The University of Moscow?

(laughter)

Barry Goldstein: Tell Robert the schools.

CRG: Louisiana State University, Wake Forest, Maryland, Missouri, Texas A&M, South Carolina, San Diego State.

BG: Their coaches have really been aggressive offering her scholarships to come play there. So she’s listening.

GC: On your way to Wake Forest – and I mentioned this to your Dad last year – I live near Charlotte…

BG: He wanted you to stay with him.  Caddy for you.

GC: Actually … I wanted to be your business manager.

(laughter)

BG: Wake Forest is one of the top four or five schools. She’s really looking at LSU, South Carolina, Wake Forest … So we’ll take you up on that, thank you.

GC: You’ll have your own room. Wolfie will come in to see you. And Benny the cat will visit you, too.

(laughter)

CRG: Is it ok if I get a hot chocolate really quick?

GC: Go, go ahead. And take a handful of Splendas. Make believe…

(laughter)

BG: Make believe you’re in a restaurant in South Florida.

GC: That’s right!

[Carly Ray departs]

(laughter)

You know, if she goes to South Carolina or Wake Forest, I can keep an eye on her.

BG: Yeah, you’d do that for me! Keep those boys away for me!

(laughter)

GC: No can do that, Barry.

[Carly Ray returns]

BG: Pick her brain.

GC: You leave that girl alone!

(laughter)

When I spoke to your Dad a year ago, up to that point you had won, what, a thousand tournaments?

(laughter)

CRG: No, right now I think it’s 84.

GC: 84! That’s fabulous.

CRG: Thank you.

GC: And how old are you now?

CRG: 16.

GC: Amazing! How old were you when you first took up the game? And don’t tell me, “In the womb.”

(laughter)

CRG: I think I learned to walk with golf clubs, to be honest. I started playing tournaments when I was 8. I got really serious then. I’ve been around it all my life, hitting balls and stuff.

GC: If you started playing tournaments when you were 8, when did you learn how to play? When you were 3?

(laughter)

When did you learn how to swing the golf club?

CRG: I think I always had a natural swing. For as long as I can remember, I’ve been able to swing a golf club.

GC: Don’t take offense, but I hate you.

(laughter)

CRG: It’s not mutual.

GC: I know! I wish I had been you…

CRG: Thank you. I know I’m lucky.

GC: Well, old guys like me who take up the game in their late 30s or 40s, unfortunately…

CRG: I’m really lucky, I know.

GC: But you’ve got the good golf genes, which I think, is 50% of it. You gotta have the genes and the eye-hand coordination…

BG: I agree.

Barry & Carly Ray Goldstein

GC: When you first started playing tournaments, were you a competitive person? Was it important to you to beat people?

CRG: I’ve always been pretty competitive. I love to win; I go to every tournament hoping for a win, looking for a win.

GC: Did you have that killer instinct? Did you want to step on their throats?

CRG: I’ve only killed a couple of girls.

(laughter)

Yeah. Ever since I started, I never wanted to stop winning. I guess I do have some killer instinct.

GC: I’ve always wanted to have that quality. And I’ve always admired people who had it. I never understood where it came from.

BG: She does it with a smile, though, Robert.

GC: She’s happy to kill you.

(laughter)

BG: Yeah, she’s always happy and in a good mood. Tells people “nice shot” but she kills them with a smile. She’s very competitive but in a happy manner. Nothing angry about it. She does it with a smile.

GC: Yeah, but who’s asking you?

(laughter)

BG: Sorry. I’m staying out of it.

GC: [to Carly Ray] How do you put up with him? Do you want me to tell him to leave?

(laughter)

CRG: No.

GC: Dad, you’re gonna have to let go of her soon; she’s gonna leave the nest. What kind of food do you like to eat?

CRG: Anything at all.

GC: Ok, when you come to my house, I make a pot roast that you could die from. Like Grandma used to make.

CRG: I do like pot roast.

GC: And be sure to give a little to Wolfie under the table. So tell me how Dad taught you the game.

CRG: Dad taught me the fundamentals. I’ve always practiced the right way. I don’t remember exactly taking up golf, but I remember when I was really young, I’d always watch him play. And from then on, I just wanted to play … always. I knew that was what I wanted to do.

GC: Was it the playing? Or was it the riding in the golf cart?

(laughter)

CRG: At first, it was probably the riding in the cart. Seeing alligators on the golf course. And after that, it was the sport that I found attractive.

GC: Do you wear a golf glove?

CRG: Yes, left hand.

GC: Years from now, if you get married, are you going to wear one of those gloves with the hole in it so the ring shows through?

(laughter)

CRG: I haven’t thought of that yet.

(laughter)

GC: And then they also have those gloves …

CRG: With the nails?

GC: Yes, so the tips are showing.

CRG: Yeah, I don’t think so.

GC: You sure?

CRG: Yeah.

(laughter)

GC: Ok, those are the right answers. I don’t like playing golf with women who have the Crème Brulee design on their fingertips.

CRG: I don’t understand that. I don’t understand that.

GC: You watch: there’s a lot of stuff you’re not gonna understand.

(laughter)

What’s your favorite golf club in the bag these days?

CRG: May I have three?

GC: You can have three. Take three!

(laughter)

CRG: Driver, putter, and lob wedge.

GC: Lob wedge?

CRG: Yes, I love my wedge. I have four wedges: lob, sand, approach, and pitch.

GC: I have four also … plus my foot wedge for impossible sand shots.  Ok, Carly Ray, it’s golf club quiz time: “What’s the heaviest club of your 14 golf clubs?”

CRG: Do you know the answer?

GC: I know the answer. And don’t look at him!

CRG: I’m going to say 3 wood or 5 iron.

BG: [whispers]: Lob wedge.

CRG: Lob wedge? Oh, I guess that makes sense.

GC: Yes, the wedges weigh more than the driver. You would think that a driver, which is longer, would weigh more. But you’re in good company – kind of – because they asked Michelle Wie that question and she said, “Driver.”  Speaking of the driver, how long are you hitting that club these days?

CRG: 250 on average. If I catch one, maybe 260.

GC: That’s fabulous. Do you have a particular swing thought that you use?

CRG: I always try to focus on rhythm and keeping a nice finish. And my grip and my fundamentals.

GC: Do you allow your left heel to rise on your backswing?

CRG: No. Left heel stays on the ground.

BG: That’s old school.

GC: That’s old school?

BG: Nowadays we don’t teach much of that.

GC: I know that. And frankly, I don’t agree with it.

BG: You let the left foot come up?

GC: Yeah. Jim Flick said in Golf Digest this month that the big muscle theory is fine for really good players and tour players, but he’s concerned that it’s not effective for regular lousy players.

BG: Flexibility is a big part of it. She’s young and strong and flexible. A guy who’s overweight and 65 years old, he needs to let that left foot come up.

GC: Who said I was 65 years old?

(laughter)

Robert Blumenthal, Carly Ray & Barry Goldstein

Carly Ray: Match play vs. stroke play. Do you have a preference?

CRG: I love ‘em both. I think match play is very intense – going back and forth, blow to blow. With match play, it all depends on whose game is better that day. I played a girl – I think I shot two better than her for stroke play – but she beat me by one at match play. I like both, I have no preference.

GC: If you’re ever 3 down or 4 down in match play, what kinds of thoughts do you have going around in your head?

CRG: You have to assume that the other girl is not going to mess up, and that you have to go take it yourself. If I’m playing well and the other girl is just beating me, what can you do? You’re playing your game. If I’m not playing well, then just get back on track and make some birdies.

GC: Well, I can tell you what you can do: in her backswing, you do the Velcro rip on the golf glove.

(laughter)

Have you ever been the victim of gamesmanship? Or should I say, gameswomanship?

(laughter)

CRG: Maybe a little. Not that I’ve noticed. I don’t like dealing with that. I don’t do that to other players, so I’d hope girls don’t do that to me.

GC: Let’s say you’re on the 15^th hole, you’re leading the tournament by 3 shots, do you start thinking at 15, “Oh, I’m gonna win this.”

CRG: No. I always try to just play my game. Just play the golf course. I always try to play smart golf, not try to do anything too risky that’s gonna make me lose my lead. That’s how I play my whole round. I try to put it in spots where I know I can make par; if I make birdie that’s great. But nothing that’s gonna take me out of the tournament.

GC: Do you have a particular shot shape that you like to play?

CRG: I play draws mostly. Just a small draw, a couple of yards.

GC: And what if you find yourself in a situation where you’re stuck behind a tree and you have to hit a fade?

CRG: I’ve just started getting kind of good at that shot. I didn’t have it in my bag for a while and I’ve been practicing it a lot. I’ve had to use it a couple of times at tournaments and it’s worked out well.

GC: You just started playing that shot? Is that because your father refused to teach it to you?

(laughter)

CRG: No! It’s just that I have a very strong ball flight and usually, if I miss it, it’ll go to the left. It just wasn’t in my bag until about 6 months ago and I’ve asked some tips from my Dad.

GC: But now that you’ve met me…

(laughter)

… you can ask me for tips. And whatever your Dad’s charging you, I’ll do it for 20% less.

(laughter)

So I’m assuming that you have professional aspirations?

CRG: Yes. I want to play four years; I want to be an All-American at whatever college I decide to go to. Then have success on the LPGA.

GC: Wonderful. The LPGA could use you.

CRG: Thank you. I appreciate it.

BG: A beautiful girl with personality that also has a good golf game.

GC: Carly Ray, I hope you become a big success  — knock on wood. I wish you all the best making it to the LPGA. I just hope that when you become a big star, you’ll remember the little people like me.

(laughter)

CRG: I will, I will.

GC: The guys from the golf magazines and TV are going to take up your time … and I’m going to be outside the press tent with my nose pressed up against the plastic window: “Carly Ray! Remember me?????  Please … let me in!”

(laughter)

And your agent will be saying, “He’s mental. Get him outta  here!”

(laughter)

CRG: “Security!”

GC: Has Pops here given you a golf tip recently that’s really worked for you?

CRG: Before this most recent tournament, I wasn’t hitting it awesome. I didn’t have my swing that much. I was thinking too much: “What am I doing wrong? Why aren’t I hitting it well?”

He just told me, “Focus on your fundamentals.”  I did that and I hit a lot of fairways and a lot of greens.

GC: Good work, Dad!

(laughter)

BG: Thanks. She’s got a great swing and I just try to keep it simple: grip, stance, posture, ball position, and a world-class finish. That’s what she works on. If something gets off, we use video once in a while. But I haven’t taped her swing in 3 months. She just has a good golf swing. She’s just a good player. You can get too technical in this game and that’s not us. That is not us. We keep it simple-stupid. Do you agree, Car?

CRG: Yes.

GC: So what’s next? You got a tournament coming up?

CRG: I have a tournament at our home course.

GC: At Inverrary?

CRG: Yeah. February 10^th and 11^th. Then after that, one in Miami. And after that, we’re gonna focus on where I’m gonna go to college and take a couple of visits.

GC: Your favorite golf course?

CRG: Pebble Beach. No doubt.

GC: Can I ask you what you shot there?

CRG: It was in the Wal-Mart First Tee Open with the tour pros. So I didn’t have a personal score. But I made a lot of birdies. We figured I shot …

BG: You played great. You birdied 6, 7, and 10 on Sunday on the Golf Channel.

GC: When was this?

BG: September of ’09. She played with Nick Price and Andy North.

GC: How nice.

BG: She outplayed Nick and Andy. They both told us afterwards she was the best player on the course that day. She played great. She played Pebble three times. They interviewed her coming down 15. What an experience.

CRG: It was great.

GC: So you actually talked to the reporter?  You didn’t say, “No interviews! Wait until after the round!”

(laughter)

Has anyone invited you to play Augusta?

CRG: No. But if I decide to go to the University of South Carolina, their team plays there once a year. So I would get the opportunity to play there.

GC: If that happens, you call me.

CRG: “Can I please bring a guest?”

(laughter)

GC: Any advice for little girls who are just starting out in golf?

CRG: Just have fun with it. I always loved the game since I was little. I think it’s something you have to love. It’s a sport you spend most of your time with. I love it. If you love it, you’ll have a great opportunity to go far with it.

GC: I understand that you’re friendly with Natalie Gulbis?

CRG: Yes. She’s been a really nice girl to me. She’s awesome.

GC: Do you guys text each other?

(laughter)

CRG: No, we don’t text each other but she’s called me a couple of times on the phone. She’s been really nice to me and sends me Christmas letters and stuff. She’s awesome.

BG: She’s been a role model.

CRG: Yeah, she’s always been a role model to me since I was younger. I’m hoping that one day I can be like that for a little girl who’s watching me on tour.

BG: She’s a good person. Her parents raised her right. She’s been awesome to my daughter. Giving her clubs and clothes … she’s a good person.

GC: Her dad’s a big dude.

BG: Yeah, we’ve met him, we’ve met her mom. We’ve been friendly with Natalie since Carly was 7 or 8. She actually called into the Golf Channel once when I was on the air with Carly … and talked with both of us on television. She’s a good person.

GC: I’ve really enjoyed chatting with you, Carly Ray. It’s just too bad that Pops here kept sticking in his two cents.

(laughter)

But seriously, thanks – to both of you. And Carly Ray, I wish you continued success in your golfing career and in college.

CRG: I appreciate it, thank you.

GC: And remember this when you’re looking for a business manager:  just because a guy understands contracts, and tax laws, and has lots of contacts in the golf industry and the media … it doesn’t mean he can make a good pot roast!

(laughter)

**************************************

So where will Carly Ray attend college? Barry spills the beans in this email excerpt:

“My daughter Carly Ray, a high school junior, gave her verbal agreement to accept a 4-year, full ride scholarship to play golf & attend Louisiana State University in the fall of 2013! She will sign her scholarship on national signing day in November at her high school.”

Barry & Carly Ray Goldstein at LSU

Cassy and I had a delightful conversation at the PGA Show in January, 2012. I must say I was rather flattered when she inquired if I’d be willing to pose for her – au naturel – for a mural commissioned by the Ireland Golf Tourist Board: “Bare-Assed at Ballybunion.”

I turned her down, of course. Too many hot dogs consumed at the turn over the years have rendered my physique unfit to be revealed to an unsuspecting public. But if nudity is what you demand from your art, I would encourage you to visit Cassy’s web site. There you’ll see sheep grazing happily in their birthday suits amongst the wind-swept grass at Whistling Straits.

Cassy Tully

Golf Conversations: Tell me about your relationship with The American Club Resort & Kohler.

Cassy Tully: I’ve painted a series called “Sunrise on the Straits” of Whistling Straits. That first went on sale exclusively at their pro shop and online at KohlerAtHome.com. It’s a series of original paintings; it’s acrylic on canvas. And I use a little bit of sand from the golf course in the painting.

GC: Whoa!

CT: It’s for sentimental purposes. They’ve approved it, they provide the sand; it’s on the Certificate of Authenticity…

GC: That this is real Kohler Golf sand … this is not from Saudi Arabia?

(laughter)

CT: Nope!

GC: Do you spread the sand throughout the painting?

CT: It’s incorporated into the paint.

GC: Do you use a brush or a sand wedge?

(laughter)

CT: A paint brush.

GC: I should collaborate with you on these paintings because I’m in the sand all the time when I play golf.

(laughter)

CT: I heard you lost a few balls at Whistling Straits.

GC: Is there no such thing as privacy anymore??? Mr. Kohler will be hearing from my attorneys, I can assure you of that!

(laughter)

So how did you get connected with Kohler Golf?

CT: In 2009, right before the PGA, was when we got connected. I had been working as an artist-in-residence in a high-end, interior design studio in Kohler. And I had gotten a number of commissions.

Whistling Straits -- Straits Course, Hole 16

GC: I love that little town.

CT: Isn’t it great?

GC: Do you live there?

CT: I live close by. My husband is from Plymouth, the next town over. He’s a high school teacher there.

GC: Are you from that area as well?

CT: I’m from the Milwaukee area originally and then I traveled the world over. Now I’m in small-town America. I love it there.

GC: Tell me about the traveling the world over part.

CT: I was on a quest to study academic art.

GC: Where did you study?

CT: My degree is from the University of Wisconsin at Madison. A Fine Arts degree. I did a Contemporary Art Survey in New York, so I got a feel for the NY gallery scene.

GC: I’m originally from NY. I used to visit the art galleries to get free wine and cheese.

(laughter)

CT: We were treated to some very nice galleries in Soho. But I quickly learned that I would not be able to live in NY long term. I feed off that energy and I really think that I would never be able to sleep. Did you sleep?

GC: Off and on. In between the car alarms going off, the boom boxes playing outside my window, the sound of the garbage trucks picking up trash 4 o’clock in the morning … I slept like a baby.

(laughter)

Then there was the “energy” of riding the subway during rush hour with someone’s arm pit in your face … or having the guy next to you on the bus clipping his nails … or being run over by bicycle messengers flying around corners. Let the record show that Cassy is now furrowing her brow.

(laughter)

CT: I’m glad I did NY as an artist. A year later, I started getting interested in ceramics.

GC: How old were you?

CT: This was my junior year of college. In your interview with Linda Hartough, she said that drawing figures is a great way to train your hand. To really train yourself to be a traditional fine artist and capture subject matter.

But in ceramics, if your art doesn’t blow up, then it’s good. It’s art. You talk about the colors, the textures, and the shape and the form and how beautiful it is. There might be a message there, too, but it’s mostly talking about the art elements and I really like that.

GC: I have to disagree with you. When I was in junior high school, I took ceramics. Just because it doesn’t blow up doesn’t mean that it’s good. I did stuff that after it came out of the kiln and you looked at it, you wanted to blow it up!

(laughter)

Sorry. So you were doing ceramics.

CT: I was working with Bruce Howdle, who is internationally known as a ceramic relief artist. He’s a great guy. He taught me how to make 3-dimensional paintings on a wall out of clay. I loved that because suddenly my painting was now coming forward. After that I did a ceramic workshop at the Anderson Ranch, which is one of the best – if not the best – art center in the country. It’s outside of Aspen.

GC: Kind of a retreat?

CT: Yes. I was by far the youngest, working with professional artists and professors. And my final year in college, I got a national grant and then went through an honor society to research relief art work in Florence.

Whistling Straits -- Straits Course, No. 14

GC: How’d it go in Italy?

CT: I think I became an artist in Italy. I was researching painting under the direction of Professor Carol Pylant from Madison. She was a wonderful mentor to me because she was a traditional fine artist. Her oil paintings are amazing.

I thought I was going to Italy to paint Florence. Sit in a field, wear a cute hat, and paint Florence. But I actually learned to create art in response to the surroundings, to take in all the visual culture, the photographs, the postcards, the cafes.

GC: Was Carol there?

CT: She was there teaching the painting course and she was my research advisor.

GC: How long were you in Italy?

CT: A month.

GC: So you weren’t there long enough to pick up the language.

CT: No.

GC: Were you there long enough to get picked up?

(laughter)

CT: I learned ciao, bella is said a lot!

(laughter)

GC: Did any of the natives grab you?

CT: No! I learned to be a tough cookie!

GC: Go downstairs to the convention floor – those golf pros will grab you!

(laughter)

It’s good that you learned to be tough. The art world is not for the faint of heart.

CT: No, it’s not.

GC: Ok, so you left Italy ungrabbed. What year was this?

CT: 2006. I did my thesis show and had a cohesive body of work from the Italian collection … thinking I was going to use that as my portfolio for my Master’s Degree. But I got a position as a personal assistant to an interior designer and artist-in-residence at the interior design studio in Kohler.

GC: And you went to Kohler because your husband was teaching nearby. How did you meet your husband?

CT: In school. I knew right away.

GC: What’s his name?

CT: Brad.

GC: I think Brad deserves to get…

CT: … a shout out?

GC: Yes.

CT: I love Brad. He supports me in every way. When I decided to go full time with my art work, he said, “You’re just going to be an artist now.”

GC: Cassy, that doesn’t mean you still can’t do a wash or clean the dishes.

(laughter)

CT: I do a lot of that.

GC: I should hope so.

CT: He helps, too.

GC: Ok, but I’m going to have to get in touch with Brad and find out exactly what you’re doing in the house.

CT: You’d love Brad. He’s a writer. I keep a clean house. Don’t worry, Robert

GC: Ok.

(laughter)

Cassy Tully & Robert Blumenthal

Tell me again how you got in touch with Kohler. You graduated in 2006…

CT: Yes. I taught at a fine arts center in Madison for about a year until Brad graduated. Then he got a teaching position in Plymouth. And I took a leap of faith and moved with him, thinking I would get a day job and use the evenings to put together my portfolio and apply to grad school.

GC: Were you guys married at the time?

CT: Not quite yet, no. We wanted to be married but we were afraid that if I got into grad school, our first year of marriage we would be apart.

GC: So you two were sharing a domicile without the benefit of marriage. Shame on you, Cassy. I’m trying to run a family web site here.

(laughter)

Hey, you’re an artist. You’re allowed to do whatever you want!

(laughter)

Ok, you were working for this design studio. Tell me how you became affiliated with Kohler Golf.

CT: I had painted a Scottish landscape. A lady who lives in Kohler and golfs everyday … she saw it and said, “It looks just like Whistling Straits” because it had the little sheep on it. She said, “You have to go out there. I’m going to have you paint Whistling Straits for my husband for Christmas.”

GC: Where did she see your Scottish painting?

CT: At the interior design studio; it was called Su Casa. As the artist-in-residence, I had original paintings for sale there.

GC: Did the woman want you to paint a particular hole at Whistling Straits?

CT: It was pretty much 14. I looked for the sheep; they were on 14. The light was just gorgeous. Whistling Straits took my breath away.

GC: Whistling Straits took my golf balls away.

(laughter)

How did you go about painting this particular hole? Did you sit there all day? Did you take photos and paint from the photos?

Whistling Straits -- Straits Course: "Four Bells" (Hole 14)

CT: I knew Whistling Straits was a very exclusive golf course …

GC: It’s not that exclusive – they let me in. [pause] That was a joke.

CT: Oh. I wanted to make sure I respected the golf course and didn’t just go running out there. So I approached them and asked for permission. They treated me very graciously.

GC: Was this the golf pro you talked to or the guys who work the bag drop area?

CT: Those guys helped me; they were the ones who took me out to the course when they had some free time. They zipped me all around.

GC: What was your process for painting the 14^th hole?

CT: I incorporated what I learned in Italy. I took pictures, I did sketches. I also looked at all the beautiful Kohler photography. It was important that I took my own pictures so I wasn’t infringing on their artistic work.

So I brought it all together and made a sketch for her to approve, drawn to scale. And she approved it. Then I painted it and she loved it.

GC: How much time elapsed between the prep phase and giving her the sketch to approve?

CT: Usually it takes 6 to 8 weeks to create an original work of art.

GC: Not the actual painting itself; just the prep-to-final-sketch phase.

CT: I was on a deadline for this one because Christmas was coming soon. I think we started talking about it in late October. So it was a week or so.

GC: Oh, only a week?

CT: Yeah.

GC: Then 6-8 weeks to create the painting?

CT: Yes.

GC: When you were out there in October in Wisconsin, weren’t the leaves starting to fall off the trees?

CT: Yes, but I had photos to refer to.

GC: I’m asking you nuts-and-bolts types of questions…

CT: These are good questions.

GC: …because my readers might not understand what it entails to create a painting. I don’t either. But I’m curious: you’re sitting there, it’s the end of October in Wisconsin, the wind is blowing, the leaves are off the trees. But you’re saying to yourself, “I’m going to paint this scene as if it was August.”

CT: In its full glory. With all the greenery. What was helpful was that the gentleman who took me out initially was a groundskeeper. He talked with me and shared with me the different ways they cut the grass and the way the light hits it.

GC: How cool.

CT: Yes. I really took that into consideration and how to create the look and feel that the client wanted.

GC: Who was the recipient of this fabulous Christmas present?

CT: Danny Tyler.

GC: What was his reaction when he received the painting?

CT: He loved it. He was also the gentleman who gave me my first golf lesson two years later. I believe he’s a retired PGA instructor. He’s a fabulous golfer.

GC: And you knew nothing about golf?

CT: Absolutely nothing! I grew up working as a tennis assistant at a country club.

GC: In Wisconsin?

CT: Yes. So I knew what a caddie was. I had watched golf and I liked golf. But golf kind of found me.

GC: That’s what happens to most of us who love the game – it kind of finds you.

CT: I love it now.

GC: Are you playing now?

CT: Thanks to Mr. Tyler, I got a good lesson. I thought I was getting good but I quickly learned that I am not good right now.

GC: It takes a lot of practice. But you need to have a passion for it, the way you have passion to create your art. If you love golf, you can’t wait to go out and practice and try to get better. But if you don’t have the passion, you’ll never be any good so there’s no sense in making yourself crazy.

CT: I love being on the course – the energy, the wind, and the beauty. It kind of takes me away.

GC: Well, the Straits course right there on Lake Michigan – that’s a very beautiful place. And Blackwolf Run is also lovely, with the deep woods and the river.

CT: I painted Blackwolf Run, too. You lost a lot of balls there on the 13^th hole. That’s what you said in your story about The American Club.

GC: I’ll not have my words thrown back in my face, young lady!

(laughter)

So what happened after you did that first painting?

CT: Another lady saw it and she wanted one for her husband and his boss. So I made two more little ones.

GC: How large were these paintings?

CT: The first one, for Mr. Tyler, was 15 x 30. It was custom made to fit their home. Then I did a series of five, small-sized paintings – about 8 x 10. All except one of them sold in a month. This was at Su Casa. And I quickly realized that I should talk to Kohler about this because this is their golf course and their beauty that they created that I’m now painting. I had one painting left and I presented it to them for approval.

GC: Who was them?

CT: Through a number of connections … I believe it went to Josue Reyes and Dirk Willis. I gave it to them on loan for however long they needed it.

GC: What year was this?

CT: 2009. It was six weeks before we got married.

GC: I don’t recall us getting married.

CT: No, my husband Brad.

GC: Ohhhhh.

(laughter)

CT: I presented the painting to them. It was about six months before I heard back from them. But I understood that there were various levels of approval that the painting had to go through.

GC: In February, 2010 they came back to you?

CT: Yes. They said, “We’d like to see more of your work.” I did a series of 15 paintings and from that they selected 7.

GC: How long does it take to do 15 paintings?

CT: A couple of months.

GC: This was acrylic with sand?

CT: Yes, acrylic paint – gel medium – and then I mixed in a little bit of sand. They approved it and they said that the paintings would be photographed for their online KohlerAtHome sales gift shop.

And from those paintings, I made greeting cards and limited edition, signed and numbered prints.

GC: Where are the 15 originals that you painted? Were they all sold?

CT: A number of them sold. Some of them are now for sale in the Whistling Straits clubhouse.

GC: And you have your own studio?  Your own website?

CT: Yes. My gallery gift shop is for my custom consultations. Art collectors can commission a painting and come to the gallery and work with me one-on-one to plan and prepare.

GC: This is in Plymouth, WI?

CT: Yes, I found a little spot where I could be close to home. It also gave me the opportunity to do custom framing.

GC: If someone wanted to buy some of your Kohler golf artwork, they would go to the Kohler web site. Correct?

CT: Yes. You can also see them on my website. But if you’d like to purchase, my site will direct you to KohlerAtHome to purchase.

GC: And at your site, can they also purchase the non-Kohler golf artwork?

CT: Not yet, but sometime in the future.

GC: Do you have any commissions to do additional Kohler Golf artwork? Perhaps a series of nudes from the women’s locker room?

(laughter)

CT: “The Sunrise at the Straits” series set the tone. With the US Women’s Open coming this June at Blackwolf Run, I was invited to paint a series of paintings. I worked with the Kohler people to select the signature holes they wanted. That series is called “Daybreak at Blackwolf Run.”

Blackwolf Run -- River Course, Hole 18

GC: With this Kohler experience under your belt, do you want to concentrate on painting golf vistas?

CT: My goal is to be a premier golf painter. There are a number of very talented and very successful golf painters and I’d like to be among them. My goal is also to be the premier destination artist for the Kohler area where I live … and to attract art collectors worldwide to our area.

Blackwolf Run -- River Course, Hole 14

I did a series of The American Club at winter. Were you there in the summer or winter?

GC: I was there in June.

CT: Kohler in the winter is exquisite. They put little twinkle lights on all the trees. There’s holly everywhere.

GC: Pretty.

CT: I did a series called “The American Club Holiday Series.” That went very well so I’ve been invited to paint the American Club this spring and those paintings will be unveiled at the end of February.

GC: If you’re interested in seeing how the master has done it, you need to get a copy of Linda Hartough’s “Hallowed Ground.” It has her paintings of some of the world’s most famous courses.

CT: I should get that. I do intend to reach out to other golf courses and to grow. But my partnership and business relationship with Kohler is very important to me.

GC: That’s a good one to have. You know, Mr. Kohler also owns The Old Course Hotel in St. Andrews, Scotland.

CT: Have you been there?

GC: I’ve been to St. Andrews but I didn’t stay at his hotel. But when you read Linda’s book, you’ll see some of the classic golf courses of Scotland and England. Pete Dye, at Mr. Kohler’s request, fashioned Whistling Straits after Ireland’s wind-swept links courses.

So if you want to be a golf artist, grab your brushes and head over there, Cassy. It’s a must-see, an important part of your training. Kind of like going to Italy … except the food stinks.

(laughter)

With the US Women’s Open coming in June of this year to Blackwolf Run, I have a great idea for a painting. We’ll call it: “Lost in the Sheboygan.” It’s a dramatization of a great but tortured man losing half a dozen golf balls in the Sheboygan River. I’ll talk to my contact at Kohler and maybe we can meet at the 13^th hole and do some preliminary sketches.

(laughter)

Cassy, it was a pleasure talking with you.  I wish you all the best in your art career.

CT: Thank you, Robert.

I had the great pleasure of walking 18 holes with one of the course’s founders, Roland Chiasson. Roland was “mucho homme,” toting his bag on his back for the entire round. I was huffing and puffing right behind him, wheeling my clubs on a trolley.

After a delightful morning of golf filled with wonderful sights of the Chéticamp mountains, Roland and I joined his brother Bernie in the clubhouse and I received a Le Portage history lesson.

What’s “Le Portage” mean? “Portaging” refers to the practice carrying a canoe overhead to avoid land obstacles … or to reach another body of water. Hundreds of years ago, the Micmac Indians and the Acadian settlers had to engage in portaging to reach Chéticamp. So to pay homage to these canoe toters, the golf course was dubbed “Le Portage.”

Bernie & Roland Chiasson

Golf Conversations: Roland, thank you for showing me around your golf course today. Not only was it a lot of fun to play, but the scenery was spectacular as well.

Bernie Chiasson: Did you par it?

(laughter)

GC: I think I parred three holes.

(laughter)

When did you decide to build Le Portage?

BC: We started thinking about it in the mid ‘70s. We made a study of Dundee Golf Course first. Robert Moote was the architect there; we got in touch with him through Enterprise Cape Breton.

Roland Chiasson: That’s a federal agency that you go to for monies depending on what you’re into: whether it be golf courses, or community centers, or museums. You go through this Enterprise Cape Breton and they look after the federal monies that come into the Cape Breton area.

GC: So from the beginning, private money wasn’t part of the equation?

BC: No. We were a community that was involved with the arena. And a sub-committee was involved with the golf course.

GC: The arena? Is that the building next to the parking lot?

BC: Yes. I was president of that for 12 years while we were planning the golf course until they opened the first nine in 1987. First, we had to find the properties; there were about 51 properties that had to be dealt with. That was a hard thing. Some of the people connected to the arena were scared that we were taking money away from them.

GC: I’m confused. What happens at the arena? I’m not familiar with the arena.

RC: The arena is community owned. We relied on federal monies to get it going. And after that, donations from the local people. We do a big money-gathering Bonanza Draw, we call it. That gathers about $40,000 that sustains the arena. It’s a money-losing proposition.

GC: Yes, but what happens in the arena?

RC: Hockey.

GC: Ohhhhhhhh, hockey! Of course. What a stupid I am!

BC: Sorry — you’re from North Carolina!

(laughter)

GC: Ok, now I get it! Hockey.

(laughter)

BC: Big time! That was the first thing; a lot of people pledged money to build the arena. The golf course started that way, too. At the time, I had about 12 guys that donated to buy land. They paid $1000 each, so I had $12,000 to play with to buy the land.

GC: And then you went to Las Vegas to do some brainstorming?

(laughter)

Roland Chiasson & Robert Blumenthal

RC: Some of the land was donated. Not all the land was bought. Some donated their land for a lifetime membership, for example. Some donated their land for nothing.

BC: There’s a lot that donated for nothing.

GC: That lifetime membership … does that include a hot dog when you make the turn?

RC: Not at all.

(laughter)

GC: If you donated your land, you don’t even get a hot dog?

(laughter)

RC: As a matter of fact, those that got lifetime memberships were not golfers.

GC: So it was done just for the community’s well-being?

RC: Just for community.

BC: They knew it was a good thing because it was connected with the arena. When you’re a Canadian, hockey is the first thing … after you start walking, you put your skates on.

GC: Yes, after you stop breast feeding in Canada, your mother hands you a hockey stick.

(laughter)

But was there an interest in golf in the community?

RC: Ingonish is where we used to go when we wanted to golf.

BC: We would play 3 or 4 times a year in Ingonish. We played tournaments there.

GC: This was at Highlands Links?

BC: Yes.

GC: So you thought, “Hmm, it would be nice to have a golf course here at home?”

RC: Correct. Nothing compared to Highlands Links but we wanted to have something. At first, it was just a 9-hole thing. The vision was: let’s start with 9 and use the arena as a clubhouse. Bernie and the boys went around and canvassed everybody that had land that we could expropriate. And to see what we could buy to get what we needed to make the course happen.

GC: How much did the government give you?

BC: We met with a lot of government agencies for grants.

RC: The local politics is this: if you have a member of Parliament that is from your region, you tap his office. Because he was elected by you and he’s going to go get whatever monies you require, within reason, to develop something in your area.

At that point in time, the golf course was seen as a tourist-inviting thing … and adjacent to the Highlands Links, it would be an add-on for golfers visiting Cape Breton. So government agencies looked at that potential.

GC: What year did you start the planning?

BC: We started in the late ‘70s. Terry Burns was working at Dundee at the time; he came over here and took charge of building the course for us.

RC: He was the superintendant. You know Terry Burns?

GC: Do I know Terry Burns? Does the Cabot Trail run through Cape Breton? Yes. I interviewed Terry a few days ago.

(laughter)

RC: Terry Burns. A good man. A hard worker and he gets people to work…

BC: And he knows his courses.

GC: Ok, so you went to the federal government and you had private people participating. How much money did you need to raise before you were ready to start building?

BC: Well, we needed about $50,000 to even think about it. Then we went to the government and got $90,000 for the Winter Work program to cut trees down and level the land.

GC: You said Terry was involved with it but did you hire an architect to lay out the routing?

BC: Yes, Robert Moote, who did Dundee first.

RC: And he knew Terry and Terry had worked with him. So hand in hand, they started tearing things apart. When money is raised in a community — if you’ve raised $50,000 or $70,000, the government says, “We will match that.” So that’s how it started. We went out with pledges, got them from the community. Then we went to the government and said, “Ok, here’s our check, where’s yours?” So they match it and that was enough money to hire Bob Moote and Terry Burns to come here.

BC: In those days, we built the first nine holes for under a million dollars. When they did the second nine, it cost them three times what it cost for the first nine.

GC: And that was because…?

RC: There was ten years difference between the first nine and second nine. ’87 and ’97 is what we’re talking about.

GC: How many people from the community were employed to build the first nine?

BC: It changed every year. We used to have about 10-12 guys in the Winter Work program one year. Then the next year it might be only 8. The government would say, “You only get $75,000. Next year, you get $100,000.” That’s the way government works.

RC: It goes by a priority system. The golf course was at the top of the heap, in our minds. But there were other projects that needed to be looked at. All monies couldn’t come to Chéticamp. A little bit had to go to Margaree, a little bit to Inverness, a little bit to Pleasant Bay.

GC: You guys must have been very excited at the prospect of having your own golf course.

RC: Oh, yeah. It’s still like a dream come true. When we got that first nine, we were like, “Whoa, how did that happen?”

BC: I live right next to No. 11.

GC: I think I peed over there this morning.

(laughter)

BC: I used to photocopy the deeds of everyone’s land and I’d put it together like a jigsaw puzzle.

RC: Everybody owned a little parcel of land. If there’s a parcel that a guy doesn’t want to sell or give, you have to get on your knees for him to give, because you need that parcel.

GC: Who did the begging?

RC: He did the begging!

(laughter)

BC: I did the begging!

GC: Bernie, show me how you beg!

(laughter)

BC: I can’t do it anymore!

(laughter)

GC: Those days are over, eh?

RC: It was a lot of work by a small committee of people that had a grandiose plan. They knew people in the government that they could tap. No patting on the back to Bernie, but he knew a lot of people. He’s the type of guy that can walk into a house and sell you an iceberg in the middle of winter.

(laughter)

GC: How much of the land was donated?

BC: I’d say 30% was donated. We only paid $200 an acre for the land.

RC: That’s pretty good.

GC: It’s spectacular land.

Hole 1 -- "Le Portage"

RC: If you look at it now … but back then, that acre for $200 wasn’t worth anything because it was in the middle of the portage here. It was a swamp type of thing. There were a lot of pieces of land that weren’t worth anything.

BC: People thought their land was worth something; but in an area that was swampy, we had to do a lot of drainage. Some of the landowners were easy to talk to because they thought a lot about the community. But some that look for money, you have to go smooth with them and sometimes…

RC: You can’t piss them off.

BC: No, that’s the last thing you want to do.

RC: Am I allowed to say that?

(laughter)

Will that be bleeped out?

(laughter)

GC: I don’t censor my effing interview subjects.

(laughter)

Would you say that the golf course started because of a love for golf or because you thought it would be a good tourist draw?

RC: It was first love for golf.

BC: Love for golf! But then we thought about tourism too.

RC: You have to bring them in, because that’s a source of money. But for us, it was the love of golf.

BC: We love golfing. Back then we had to go Highlands Links in Ingonish.

GC: That’s a hike to Ingonish.

RC: Yeah, it’s a long day. And at that point in time, they didn’t have carts, so we used to walk the course and then drive back.

GC: I interviewed Lloyd Donovan yesterday at Highlands Links; he told me that it wasn’t that long ago that they got power carts.

RC: That’s right.

GC: Lloyd also told me that they were trying to keep you guys out of there – that the Chiasson brothers were trouble makers.

(laughter)

He said, “Let them build their own course. Keep those guys out of Ingonish!”

(laughter)

RC: It’s been a long road and lot of work by a lot of people.

BC: We are living in a community where you have a lot of volunteers.

RC: All the labor was pretty much donated. The golf course is here because there’s a lot of people that donate their time and energy and make it work.

I got a couple of the local politicians here and stood them on top of the hill here and said, “Have a look at what we have here … and picture a clubhouse on top of this hill.”

It took a lot of barking but eventually we got another $100,000 or so from the Provincial government. It’s just to say that if you don’t push it that extra mile, we wouldn’t have the clubhouse here. So either put yourself a little deeper in debt for the right reason and say, “Now, it’s done – let’s think about how we’re gonna pay for this.” But don’t go halfway trying to save money.

GC: That type of long-term thinking usually makes the most sense in business.

RC: The hard part was convincing the board that that was a good idea. And it has to come not from me, but from the community.

GC: It’s a beautiful course; you and the community should be very proud of what you’ve accomplished. This could never happened in the United States. Maybe 80 years ago but now everybody…

RC: Is for themselves?

GC: That’s it.

RC: Here it’s still a big deal because we’re a proud people. It’s an Acadian community. Acadian surrounded by Scottish and Irish people.

BC: You go to town and you look at the lawn grounds … people take pride. They don’t have big, expensive homes…

RC: But whatever we have, we treat well.

BC: It’s well taken care of. And this course is well taken care of. We have good workers.

RC: I say for the amount of people they have working, they’re doing a marvelous job.

BC: Ingonish has twice the manpower that we have.

GC: So when the first nine opened in ’87, who hit the first tee shot?

RC: It had to have been one of the politicians.

GC: How was your first nine in ’87; do you remember?

(laughter)

RC: We parred everything.

(laughter)

BC: I lost a few balls.

(laughter)

GC: You know, if you want to put people to work, you should send them into the woods and look for the golf balls I lost today.

(laughter)

RC: It’s for sure if we had $10 million to burn, we could make the course look prettier.

GC: Aesthetically, you don’t have to do anything. But if you do get $10 million to burn, call me and we’ll meet in Vegas.

(laughter)

RC: Aesthetically, it’s perfect. You just need to tell golfers to hit the ball straighter.

(laughter)

BC: Yeah, don’t go in the woods, it’s not the place to be.

GC: But this course isn’t a tight course. There’s plenty of room here. It’s just that I stink.

(laughter)

Hole 4 - "La Mine de Plâtre"

RC: You had too many balls in your bag!

(laughter)

GC: I was at Bell Bay the other day and I sliced one into the woods. I was playing with the pro, Ted Stonehouse. He was such a nice guy – he’d go into the woods to look for my ball. He couldn’t find my ball but he came out with 8 others.

(laughter)

So he kept replenishing my golf ball supply. My goal for today was to lose all the golf balls that Ted gave me. And I think I did.

(laughter)

RC: Well, you tried!

GC: If I may paraphrase Yoda from Star Wars, I didn’t try … I did!

(laughter)

So after the course was built, what was the reaction by the community?

RC: The community was very, very proud. A lot of them had to be taken around because some of them didn’t golf at the time. There was a small group that were avid golfers, but there were a lot that weren’t.

GC: They just wanted to do this for the good of the community?

RC: Yes.

GC: Socialists!!!

(laughter)

BC: Even some members of the arena who weren’t golfers at first, now they’re the first ones off the tee. It changed a lot of people’s attitudes about golf.

RC: It was a learning process. People didn’t know what golf was about. In the community here, there might have been 20 of us that went to Ingonish to go golfing.

GC: They thought golf was just for rich people?

BC: Yes.

RC: Yeah, I think so.

BC: Then they started playing. And it took a while before women started getting involved.

RC: And to get a junior program going. We have some really great golfers now in the young ones.

BC: And our pro and General Manager, Dave Deluzio, is doing a great job with the juniors.

RC: We’re very fortunate; we just got Dave this year. He’s excellent with the kids. You’ve met him; he’s gregarious, he likes to talk, he’s got a good personality. He makes everybody welcome. But the key is with the kids: he has a way about it. He’s a good teacher and encourages everything.

Dave Deluzio

GC: Yes, Dave is a super guy. You’re lucky to have him. I can’t say this enough: it’s a beautiful, beautiful course. I tip my visor to the people of Chéticamp.

RC: Thank you. We’re a little saddened when we look at the parking lot and there’s only 4 or 5 cars. Bernie’s got one, I’ve got one. That’s a problem. I think at one time we peaked at 400-and-some members when we opened the back nine. That was good for here. That’s a lot of women and a lot of juniors.

GC: Well, I’m certainly going to do my part to get the word out about Le Portage.

BC: We appreciate that.

GC: It’s nice to see a community get behind something like this. Is the course run for-profit? Is the government involved at all?

RC: Our government’s not involved at all anymore. Unless we submit some project that we need monies for, it’s run by a local 12-member board. Half of them are for the golf course; half of them are for the arena. They hired, for example, Dave. They hire the staff. They hire the greenskeeper.

There are still monies to be paid to the federal government. Every year we make a payment. I think there’s a balance of about $375,000.

GC: But is the course run as a profit-making venture?

RC: We hope by the end of the year that we have enough to pay everybody, to put the fertilizer down, and pay down the loan, and come out on the green side. That’s what we hope.

GC: And anything that might be left over goes back to the course?

RC: Yes, but sometimes we’ll make double payments on the loan.

GC: If Donald Trump shows up here and says, “I’ll give you $20 million for your golf course.” Who gets to say “yes” or “no”?

RC: The community would say “no,” I’m sure.

GC: Good! He wouldn’t like the windy conditions here; it would mess up his comb-over.

(laughter)

BC: We want people to be able to afford to play our course. Our memberships are $850 now.

GC: That’s great! I’d move here tomorrow if I wasn’t allergic to moose dander.

(laughter)

Bernie, how often are you out here?

BC: I play every day.

GC: Every day???

RC: Yes, he plays every day.

BC: It’s not going to last forever.

RC: He’s fully retired and that’s what the retirees do: they play every morning. I’m semi-retired so I try to get in at least 4 or 5 rounds a week.

GC: When does the golf season end? October?

BC: October, yeah.

GC: It must be spectacular here with the fall foliage.

RC: Oh, it’s nice. And usually here, we have a better fall than spring. September and October can be very nice.

GC: Messieurs: Le Portage est magnifique! Merci beaucoup!

RC: You’re welcome. It was our pleasure.

******************************************

Be sure to visit Le Portage’s web site. It has spectacular photos and flyover videos of the golf course. Along with the other courses I enjoyed during my Cape Breton Golf Adventure, Le Portage winds its way through some of the most beautiful and wild landscapes to be found anywhere in the world.

In this interview, the Good Doctor makes a compelling argument for analyzing a student’s physiology to determine the type of golf instruction he/she should receive. If you’re confused about all the conflicting theories of the golf swing, I think you’ll be quite enlightened with what Jim has to say. Plus, he weighs in on last summer’s Rees Jones/Phil Mickelson controversy regarding Jones’s re-design of Cog Hill.

Dr. Suttie is currently dispensing golf instruction prescriptions in Naples, Florida at The Club at Twin Eagles. He’ll be returning to Cog Hill in Lemont, Illinois on May 15th. For more Rx information, please visit his web site.

Dr. Jim Suttie

Golf Conversations: Tell me about the doctorate, doc.

Jim Suttie: I got a doctorate in kinesiology; it was a burgeoning field at the time. I did all my research at the University of Kentucky. The actual course work was done at Middle Tennessee State University, which is now the largest school in Tennessee. Kentucky had a biomechanics lab, so I had to drive up there every weekend to do the research.

GC: Were you a golf professional at the time?

JS: Oh, yeah. I was a pro. I kind of wanted to make a contribution to golf, I guess. I did a biomechanical comparison between two groups of golf students and compared it to a model performance. We did a composite of many golfers. We did the average of their swing in 10 positions and looked at 4,500 measurements of each golfer.

This was a time when you had to digitize by hand. Every 3 frames, we had to digitize the motion and find out how much the joint moved from point to point.

GC: That must have been rather laborious.

JS: Oh, it took forever! It took us one day to digitize one person. Sometimes, two days to do 4,500 measurements. Now they’ve got automatic digitizing.

GC: Is that what they do with that MAT system?

JS: Yes. But the MAT system now is different. Biomechanics is altogether different for golf now. It’s 3-D. Back in ’81, ’82, ’83, it was two dimensional; they didn’t have 3-D.

But golfers don’t interpret things in 3-D motion. They interpret things on a video screen, unfortunately. They’re so used to looking at a video screen — which is two dimensional — and it flattens the picture.

GC: Can the 3-D be helpful?

JS: Oh, yeah. I think three-dimensional film and video is the wave of the future. In fact, we’re going to start seeing more and more stuff in 3-D.

A golf teacher, when he teaches you, he’s looking at three dimensions. He’s not looking at two dimensions. What looks like a long swing at the top on video sometimes is not a long swing because the picture is flattened.

But this modeling technique we used … we compared it to the average golfer. We put the stick-figure composite model on top of the high-speed video. If the model moved a certain way and you didn’t move like that, we would call it an error. But it doesn’t work that way in the real world because people move at different rates of speed and have different rhythms.

GC: The foursome that’s in front of me always moves at the same rate of speed: slow!

(laughter)

So you did this work in ’81?

JS: Yes.

GC: Biomechanics for golf: you were a real pioneer, Doc.

JS: The composite modeling technique was the first study of its kind, yes. And video followed shortly thereafter. Yes, it was kind of pioneer work and I learned enough about it to know that you can’t put one composite model average swing on top of a body and say, “This is the way to swing.”

There isn’t one way to swing. There are many ways to swing.

GC: And I’ve tried them all!

(laughter)

JS: The most important thing in a golf swing probably isn’t even mechanical. It’s more sequential; timing is very important. I call that sequential. Rhythm is how you accelerate and decelerate the club through the swinging process. Tempo: overall speed of the process. And balance. Those are four things that are very non-mechanical that are probably the four most important items that I see in a golf swing.

GC: When people talk about swinging the golf club, the first thought that comes to my mind is using your hands and arms to swing the implement.

JS: Mmm-hmm.

GC: Maybe you can explain to me this “big muscle” theory that says, “Oh, don’t get handsy … hands are bad.”

JS: It depends on the power source. You have to look at swings in terms of power sources. A guy’s power source might be his hands. Like Julius Boros; I think his power source was probably his hands.

GC: Julius Boros wrote “Swing Easy, Hit Hard.” One of my favorite books. Julius is one of my all-time favorite golf club swingers. I mean, if an accountant can win the US Open, there’s hope for the rest of us!

(laughter)

JS: You don’t ever take a person’s power source out of their game. You always work with their power source. Somebody’s power source might be their ability to rotate their body. But then again, there’s a lot of people that can’t rotate their body, so they have to use more hands and arms and less body.

If you come right down to it, the grip – how you hold the golf club – has a lot to do with the swing type. If you have a weak grip and you try to become a body player, you’re probably fighting Mother Nature. But if you have a strong grip and you become a body player, it’ll probably fit you. Unless your body is so inflexible where you can’t do it.

GC: Doc, when I’m playing golf, I’m fighting Mother Nature and Old Man Par.

(laughter)

When you get a new student, do you try to get him or her to take the so-called standard grip?

JS: No. Everything that I do in a golf swing – including the grip – is individualized and customized. You do that through some tests that I do. Just look at a person’s shoulders; if their shoulders are rounded, their hands are going to turn in and they’ll have a stronger grip.

For example, Corey Pavin has really straight shoulders and his grip is going to be a weaker grip. So you have to kind of watch and observe and that just comes from years of experience watching golfers.

GC: That’s interesting because whenever you read about the grip, 99% of the time they’re telling you to have your two Vs pointing between your right shoulder and your chin. No offense to you lefties out there.

JS: There’s no one grip, even though I would like to say there was … I wish there was. I can tell you that you can get more power from a stronger grip with the thumb behind the shaft. But it doesn’t mean it’s going fit everybody. I don’t think anything in the golf swing fits everybody.

Even ball position. I teach what they call “matching swing elements.” For example, if a guy has a strong grip, I’d probably put him into a stronger turning motion. If he has a weak grip, I won’t worry about him turning so hard through the ball because he’s going to square it with his hands and arms.

But “matching swing elements” is what most good teachers are teaching nowadays. They’re trying to coordinate with the natural motion of what the body is doing with the stuff that really works for that individual player.

GC: You were talking about ball position. Move it up and down in your stance or always off the left heel like Nicklaus?

JS: I don’t teach one thing to everybody. If a guy’s got a really strong leg drive and a strong motion to the left, the ball’s going to be more forward because that’s going to be the bottom of his arc.

If a guy’s got a really low swing – like a player I work, Mark Wilson – I put him into a low swing and he’s kind of a pure rotator. I’ll have his ball back a little bit more. So it just makes sense: the bottom of the arc is going to change according to the grip type and how the body moves.

We all do things differently; that’s what biomechanics is all about. What you as a teacher have to discover is the way this person moves most naturally. Because he’s going to put that natural motion back in his swing under the gun.

GC: Right.

JS: So you have to find things that work for this guy that’s going to allow the club to get square at impact with a sufficient amount of acceleration. For example, there’s such a thing as a one-piece takeaway. And there’s such a thing as a sequential takeaway. So not everybody should have a one-piece takeaway.

GC: What is your definition of a one-piece takeaway?

JS: I would say more of a body/shoulder/arm motion like a Davis Love. Sequential takeaway would be somebody that gets the clubhead moving first; the hands and the arms, then the turn … in that order. Sequential is an order of movement. One-piece is an all-together motion.

GC: Let’s say a new student comes to see you…

JS: Yes?

GC: Let’s say … he happens to be fairly attractive, a credit to the game of golf, and a wonderful person.  Someone, for example, like me.

(laughter)

Let’s say he’s a 15-handicap. How would you go about evaluating him – or me – and determine, “Gee what can I do to help this poor schnook?”

(laughter)

JS: First of all, a lot depends on his level of commitment.

GC: I’m committed, I’m committed! I’ve tried to “dig it out of the dirt” for so many years that I’ve been to China and back ten times.

(laughter)

JS: Ok. So that will determine the kind of lesson you’re gonna give him. Then you have to find out what kind of ball flight he wants. Questions like: “What kind of physical problems do you have?” Because if he has a physical problem such as an inflexible trunk, you’d better not try to teach him a big turn because it just won’t work.

GC: So you’ll do some flexibility testing?

JS: I do some flexibility testing…

GC: What would that entail? You’re not hooking him up to a machine?

JS: No, no. These are things you can do eyeballing a person. Give him some simple tests without a club. You can find out what his best position is at the top just by a simple drill. We all have a best position at the top where we create a direct route to the ball.

As much as I’ve done in the technical aspect of golf, I think I’ve worked even harder at being simple. And I think simplicity works for players because they get lost in all the technical jargon.

GC: Yes, they do. There’s so much of it … and so much of it is conflicting. We were talking about this yesterday at Demo Day: you can read two conflicting pieces of golf instruction in the same magazine.

So during that initial consultation, you determine the player’s flexibility and degree of commitment …

JS: And natural motion.

GC: … are you like a good horse trainer? A good trainer can look at a horse and see that the feet are turned out a little bit; the knees are a little knocked…

JS: You know, that’s a good point. I would say that it’s a gift that I have … where I can look at somebody and tell him, “This is the most natural swing that you can get into where you don’t have to re-do your whole swing.” But yeah, I have a good eye for what’s natural.

To give you an example, Mark Wilson has had a great deal of success…

GC: He sure has.

JS: …He’s one of my students. I don’t take credit at all for Mark but I will say this: Mark came to me and he was working on things that totally didn’t fit him. He was working on a more upright swing. If you watch Mark, he’s got a very low, roundish type of swing with fast rotation. I strengthened his grip. I did several things that made him click. So that’s kind of what I think I’m good at.

Not only eyeballing, but I do some tests when I’m not sure of what they do best. I do a lot of feedback as well.

GC: Well this wouldn’t be a golf conversation if I didn’t re-direct the subject to me, because, really, that’s all I’m interested in.

(laughter)

JS: Most golfers are!

GC: I’m not that interested in you.

(laughter)

GC: Just kidding, Doc. I’ve got an anatomy that I’m curious to see if you’ve ever encountered.

JS: Yes?

GC: I’ve got flat feet and I’m bow-legged. You know how they say when you make your backswing, your weight should be on the inside of your right foot?

JS: Mmmm-hmmmm.

GC: Well if your foot is completely flat – and your legs are bowed – that weight is on the outside of your foot to begin with.

JS: Right.

GC: So when I make that turn back, should I be toeing the right leg in to counteract…

JS: No, that would be totally unnatural for you.

GC: Yes.

JS: By you telling me that, you’d have to toe both feet out to accommodate the way your body wants to move. Also, I’d look at the length of your lever…

GC: Keep it clean, Doc. This is a family web site.

(laughter)

JS: Where’s your power source? Try to identify your power source and then find out the way you get the most direct route to the ball. All those things are going to go into the scenario when I look at a student.

GC: That’s fascinating. You often hear teachers say, “There is no one swing, I don’t teach a swing, I teach the student.” But you’ve demonstrated how the student’s physical makeup determines the type of swing you’ll recommend for him.

JS: Yes, my background has helped me because I’ve studied the human body. The problems people have, the way they move because of their anatomy, physiology, flexibility, and neuro-muscular control. All those things have to go into it. You just can’t say, “Well, you’re built like this, therefore, swing like this.” There’s more to it than that.

GC: But, Jim: getting back to flat feet and bowed legs. This is the mother lode! This could be a post-doctoral study for you.

(laughter)

This could be in all the medical journals. I don’t know if this has ever been researched before.

(laughter)

JS: Just by you telling me you’re bow-legged, you’re never going to be a leg driver.

GC: Another fantasy dashed. Thanks, Doc.

(laughter)

JS: But with your feet out like that, you’re gonna be a hip turner for sure.

GC: A hip turner, eh? Wait ‘till the “restrict-your-hip-turn” boys hear about that! Their “X-Factor” heads will explode!

(laughter)

Robert Blumenthal & Dr. Jim Suttie

JS: You’re gonna turn your hips probably more than a lot of people. Flat feet … you’re not gonna be driving off your legs, so you’re probably going to be more of an arm swinger and less of a body rotator. Therefore, you’ll have more hand and arm motion.

GC: You know, that is what I do.

JS: Is it?

GC: Yes. I’ve experimented for 19 years with different types of golf swings and I’ve come to the conclusion that I’m an arms & hands guy.

JS: There’s nothing wrong with that. You just have to know how to time it.

GC: But Doc, I live under the ominous specter of some guy on the driving range telling me, “You’re very handsy.” Like I had leprosy or something. When I interviewed Bob Toski and Jim Flick – two proponents of “Arms & Hands” – I felt like Moses reaching the top of Mt. Sinai.

(laughter)

JS: The size of your chest, the width of your shoulders – you look at those things, too. If you have a big chest, you’re gonna have a more forward bend at address. If you have a big chest, you don’t want to tie your arms in; you’ve got to have some freedom so you can move.

GC: So someone like me, who doesn’t have a big chest or wear a manssiere, I might be more upright in my stance?

JS: Could be. There’s a test that I would give you to find out where your natural place is.

GC: So when you’re doing all these measurements…

JS: They’re not technical measurements. They’re practical measurements that involve moving the body into different positions and seeing how the student can move.

GC: You teach at Cog Hill during the warmer months. What did you think of last summer’s Cog Hill controversy with Rees Jones and Phil Mickelson?

JS: They tried to prepare the course as best they could. I would say the guys weren’t used to the targets. Guys had played the course differently for a number of years in the Western Open. Then, all of a sudden, they get to a brand-new golf course. So I think some of them were a little shocked because they couldn’t shoot the numbers that they used to. And the pros, they really like to go low, of course.

They like courses they feel comfortable on … well, Cog Hill lost its comfort zone for these guys. So I can’t say there’s anything wrong with the golf course, because I do think it’s a pretty good golf course. I think that the players … their comfort zone was totally lost and they didn’t know what to think.

GC: So that’s a nice way of saying, “They’re a bunch of crybabies.”

(laughter)

Now if someone couldn’t come to see you – what can you tell someone who can’t make the trip to Chicago or Naples?

JS: I’ve taught a lot of young teaching pros throughout the country. We do a lot of Internet lessons. Or they can take a picture with their iPhone, send it to my email, and I turn it around and send it back to them. There’s a very small charge, not a big one.

Of course, that’s not really a lesson; it’s more of an analysis, but I can give him a few things that will get him on the right track.

GC: Well, this has been very enlightening. It makes a lot of sense to work with the body you have.

JS: Work with the body you have.

GC: Don’t fight it.

JS: You don’t fight it. I believe the German philosopher, Nietzsche, said: “There’s my way, there’s your way, there’s no the way.” And I think that applies in golf as well. I don’t think there’s one way. You’ve got to find the way that helps that person.

GC: And I believe it was the Green Bay Packer middle linebacker, Ray Nitschke, who said, “Third and long, watch for the draw!”

(laughter)

You know how they say the cobbler’s children have no shoes and the baker’s wife has no cookies … or whatever that expression is? Do you ever play golf?

JS: I do. But the problem is I’ve had a number of surgeries. Back surgeries: three. Two hip surgeries. And it looks like I’m going to have a knee surgery. I don’t make excuses but it does stop you…

GC: Oh, of course.

JS: …if you’re in pain. So that’s why I can identify with the human body a little bit. Because I’ve had most of these ailments myself.

GC: Do you think that your back injuries were caused by incorrect swinging in your earlier years?

JS: Most definitely. I played what they call “shut-face” golf. I really drove my legs hard and went way under with my right side and really injured my spine.

GC: Was that the Reverse-C?

JS: Right.

GC: That’s how it was taught.

JS: It was done that way. That’s how I hurt my back. They put a rod in it years ago. The operation wasn’t very successful, so I lost a great deal of function in my legs. So I do what I can do. And that’s what you have to do with a lesson: you do what you can do.

GC: You sound as if you’re still passionate about teaching golf.

JS: I am. Somebody asked me a few weeks ago, “Would you rather teach a tour player or the average guy?” I don’t really discriminate there, but I’ve found that the average guy is a lot happier with that ball flight when it’s drawing. The tour player is sometimes trying too hard at his craft and sometimes you can’t make him happy.

GC: I think the average player is thrilled just to get the ball in the air. Never mind that it’s drawing 5 yards. Plus, when you give a lesson to the average guy, he’s excited at the prospect of improving.

The tour guy: he’s there with his agent, his sports psychologist, his swing coach, his short-game coach, his putting coach, his Pilates teacher, his Twitter writer, his high school guidance counselor … it must be hard to give a lesson to a guy with an entourage of 20 people.

(laughter)

JS: You just wonder how the old guys could ever play the game.

GC: You know what’s amazing? Guys like Hogan and Snead and the pre-Nicklaus guys: there were no yardage markers, no sprinkler heads. They just looked and swung.

JS: I know. They didn’t have GPS or anything else. They were about feeling and reacting. There was more feel in the game way back when, a lot better visualization, and a lot better targeting. Now we’re so far into mechanics, and the “how-to,” that the feel is coming out of the game. The guys that can retain their feel are the guys that are winning PGA Tour events.

GC: Is there a particular swing on the PGA Tour that you like?

JS: I really like Charley Hoffman’s swing. He’s got a good swing. He seems to do things the right way; I wish he could putt better. I don’t know Charley that well but his swing is quite good.

GC: Well, this was a lot of fun. Thank you, Jim. Now about that post-doctoral work we discussed. I think I’m going to have to meet you at the lab this summer at Cog Hill.

(laughter)

Lloyd Donovan

Golf Conversations: Is Highlands Links owned by the government?

Lloyd Donovan: It’s owned by the government. It’s federally owned. When you set rates, you’ve got to be careful because you can’t discriminate against the rest of Canada. You can’t say we’ll give you a Nova Scotia rate because we can’t.

GC: I know that in Florida, Nevada, and other places in the US, they have one rate for the tourists and another rate for state residents.

LD: We have to keep the same rates for all Canadians. That hurts a little bit; we can’t compete with Bell Bay or Le Portage that give discount rates.

GC: You should have a rate for non-Canadians and a lower rate for Canadians. Tourists are used to paying the higher rate.

LD: We’d like to do all kinds of good stuff like that. But you’re governed by all these rules and this is what we’re always working against.

GC: When you say, “we’re”?

LD: The Club, the community.

GC: Explain to me how the golf course is administered and managed.

LD: The government runs the golf course; it’s run from within the Parks system. They’re responsible for everything that happens here. But the Club has an agreement with them … we put money in the course to do different projects. We just put in money to re-do the sand traps.

GC: How many members are in your Club?

LD: We have 150 members, plus our juniors.

GC: And you’re the President.

LD: Yes.

GC: Good. Because I only deal with principals.

(laughter)

LD: We work with the Park employees here. We bring in tournaments and that helps the community. It fills hotels and motels, restaurants, etc. The Nova Scotia Junior Amateur was held here just last week. We hosted that. The Parks department can’t do those things so we do it for them. In return, we get special tee times: the first 2 hours in the morning belong to the Club. So we work together; but their hands are tied when it comes to changing rates, advertising… there’s a lot of things they can’t do because of the way the government is run.

GC: So if you wanted to run an ad, you’d have to get permission…

LD: Yes, you have to get approval. It takes time. By the time you get all this done, the season is over.

GC: Was the course always owned by the government?

LD: Always owned by the government. It was built in the ‘40s. There’ve been a lot of changes over the years but unfortunately, there’s never a person in charge who’s a golfer.

GC: That’s odd. Usually you have a PGA or CPGA pro who runs the course…

LD: We have … but he’s never in charge. He’s hired by the government. The food and beverage here is a concession; which works sometimes and sometimes it doesn’t. My thought is that they have to come up with a solution here to run it like a business. Everybody here who works here … they’re all dedicated people. But they can’t do what they want to do.

GC: Sounds like my golf swing.

(laughter)

Lloyd Donovan & Robert Blumenthal

LD: And we’re off the beaten path here; we’re a little isolated.

GC: Are you?

LD: A lot of people think so. Some people are scared to drive over mountains.

GC: Come on! It’s a couple of big hills. Rocky Mountains – those are mountains. These are nice rolling hills.

LD: But the weather plays a big part in the whole operation.

GC: How so?

LD: Like today, this place is basically empty because it’s chilly. On a hot, sunny day, you can’t get near here, it’s so full.

GC: Are most of the people who play here tourists or are they from the area?

LD: Mainly tourists. Before this course was reconstructed in 1992, we used to have around 13,000 rounds a year. Then we went up to 31,000; now, it’s around 19,000. We’d like to get it back up to around 30,000, which makes the course busy and the community hums. Everybody’s happy – money’s being made.

GC: A good golf course can attract a lot of tourists.

Hole 3 - Lochan

LD: A lot of people don’t realize how valuable this golf course is to this community. And within the park, there are other things to do: hiking trails, beaches, scenery.

GC: It’s a beautiful National Park.

LD: And everybody that comes, comes back.

GC: I was here 15 years ago and here I am today: I’ve come back, Lloyd.

(laughter)

LD: I own the hardware store and a construction company … I’m always asking people, “Where are you from? What brought you here?” Last summer I was talking to a gentleman and asked him where he was from. He said he was from Pittsburgh. I asked him what brought him all the way here. He said he was in Halifax and they told him he had to visit Cape Breton.

He said, “I’ll be back next year. I can’t believe this place exists.”

GC: It’s a beautiful place and surprisingly close to the US. It’s only a 2-hour flight from New York to Halifax.

LD: It’s safe, there’s no crime here. You can basically walk around here and never have to worry.

GC: Are you a native?

LD: I am. I lived in Ontario for 16 years, but I’m originally from here. I love it. In the winter, I move around a lot but in the summer I like being right here.

GC: When you say you “move around a lot”…?

LD: I work in Montreal or down in the States. I move around to break the winter up; the winters are long here. If you’re a skier or an outdoors person you’ll like the winters.

GC: Were you always a golfer?

LD: Yeah, I used to caddie here in the summer. I was 8 or 9 years old. We’d carry two bags. For 18 holes, we’d get 2 bucks a bag.

GC: Was 2 bucks a bag a lot of money back then?

LD: Yeah, it wasn’t bad. That was the rate but we used to get tips so we did alright. You got to know a lot of people. And some people would stay for 2 or 3 weeks and they’d take care of you.

GC: They would specifically ask for Lloyd Donovan?

LD: Oh, yes.

GC: Lloyd, you must have been a good caddie. A nice way for a kid to expand his horizons.

LD: Oh, for sure. You learn a lot. You got a different outlook on life and some of the things you’d hear you would apply to your own life.

GC: That’s what’s great about golf.

LD: Oh, yeah. Golf is a game where you should walk, and you should talk to the person next to you. It’s just fun. There was a time when I used to throw clubs. Now? No. I got over that years ago. Now it doesn’t matter if I’m playing bad or not; I enjoy whomever I’m with. You just have a good time.

GC: That’s right. Just look where you are. Look at this amazing scenery.

Hole 15 - Tattie Boogle

LD: On No. 6, there are two huge eagles sitting on a stump there.

GC: I saw my first red fox at Dundee Golf Course a few days ago.

LD: Ok.

GC: The only red fox I had seen before that was Redd Foxx.

(laughter)

And yesterday at Bell Bay, a bald eagle was flying overhead carrying some twigs for his nest. I was thrilled!

LD: The two eagles I’m talking about at No. 6 … one day I was standing on the tee and there was a blue heron fishing on the little pond near the tee. He came up with a fish in his beak. And that eagle swooped down and grabbed that fish from his beak. That was something. You never cease to be amazed out there.

GC: I’m amazed when I don’t three-putt.

(laughter)

LD: Sometimes you see moose out there. You don’t know if they’re going to charge you or run away from you. But you have to pay attention to them. One day, I was standing on No. 2 tee and I saw two young moose coming right at us. And suddenly, the mother came out of the woods and cut them off before they got to us. But we had to get behind some trees because the mother is only protecting her young.

GC: Don’t the moose know it’s cart path only?

(laughter)

LD: They walk over the greens; they don’t take their shoes off!

(laughter)

GC: Oh, my goodness! Don’t tell me they don’t fix their hoof marks?

(laughter)

LD: We’ve talked to them for years – they don’t listen.

GC: I guess they don’t rake the traps, either?

LD: No, they don’t even do that.

GC: With those antlers, they could just bend over and rake the sand.

(laughter)

So getting away from moose for a moment … you were caddying here as a young boy. Would you find time to play, as well?

LD: Yes, late in the afternoon, they would let us play. I did that for years.

GC: Did you have a natural swing? Did you take lessons?

LD: Never did take lessons. Just picked the clubs up and played. You watched other people and learned that way.

GC: Hold on, Lloyd. Are you saying you had no sports psychologist when you were young?

(laughter)

LD: No, no. One year, I came back here on vacation; George Knudson and Al Balding played here. The former pro that used to be here, Joe Robinson, caddied for one of them, I think.

In ’65, ’66, or ’67, there was a tournament here where I caddied. Moe Norman was playing in it. I think he won by one stroke. Norman was an interesting guy to be around. He was always talking to people: “Get your shadow out of my line.”

GC: He was a bit of a savant.

LD: Yeah. I can remember he was in the old clubhouse. When he came through the door, he didn’t say “excuse me.” He’d just push you out of the way. I can remember one incident where Norman shoved the parish priest who was in his way. “Out of the way, Father; I’ve got things to do.”

Somebody confronted him right then and there because that was taboo – you didn’t push a priest. You never knew what he was going to say.

GC: He had that amazing ability to hit the golf ball. Everything else…

LD: Wasn’t there. He was a great golfer but he was not loved. Didn’t have too many friends. It’s a shame.

GC: If someone’s never been to Highlands Links, what would you like them to know?

LD: The golf course has such natural beauty. There’s not a tee where you don’t stand there and say, “Wow, I’ve never seen this before.”  Everywhere you walk, there’s something to see … like the eagles on 6. There’s not a hole that’s the same. The views are just gorgeous; and if you’re not playing well, it doesn’t matter. Because the view takes your game and puts it into a different perspective.

GC: How many years have you been playing here?

LD: 38 maybe.

GC: So every time you play…

LD: I enjoy it. There’s not a day that I don’t think, “This is fantastic.”

GC: Good for the soul.

LD: There are no phones, no traffic. Just you and the guys you’re with having a good match. We’re watching eagles or moose; it doesn’t get old, it doesn’t get boring. ‘Cause it’s always different.

GC: This is what I’m enjoying about the courses here at Cape Breton: there are no houses or condos lining the fairways. You feel as if you’re part of nature, you’re away from the rest of the world.

Hole 10 - Cuddy's Lugs

LD: This course is not a manicured course, never will be.

GC: That’s not what golf is supposed to be.

LD: A lot of people feel that it should be.

GC: That’s Augusta National’s influence.

LD: Yeah. We get a lot of people who come here – they’re a 3-,4-, or 5-handicap. And they go out there and shoot a 95 or 101 and they come in and criticize the course. It’s not the course. They’re used to playing a nice, flat course. We have sidehill, downhill lies … pin placements can be on the side of hills. And there’s no place here where you can go off the fairway and say “it’s ok.” You go off the fairway here, you’re gone.

GC: Yes, I’ve noticed.

(laughter)

This course is often called Stanley Thompson’s masterpiece. Did he consider it to be his masterpiece?

LD: They say he did. And I think most people agree. It’s a National Park at its best with a golf course in the middle of it.

GC: Lloyd, you mentioned before something about a renovation.

LD: In the ‘90s, we brought the golf carts in. We never used to have carts here. So we had to build cart paths. A lot of people can’t walk this course; this is a tough course to walk. I think it’s 7 ¼ miles up and down.

GC: We have a whole generation of golfers who’ve never walked a golf course. If you get tourists here who’ve never walked, you might discourage some people.

LD: And you do.

GC: You’re still doing renovations here?

LD: Oh, yeah. We have more traps to do. The trees, of course, grew and everything closed in. There were no vistas. So two years ago, they started cutting down trees.

At first, I thought, “Why are they cutting down these trees?” But when I started seeing the vistas again … boy, was I ever wrong. Those things should have been cut a long time ago.

GC: Were they working with the original plans?

LD: Yes. Another reason for cutting the trees is that our greens were getting no air, the flowers were getting no air. Now you can see the difference.

GC: You brought in a golf course architect to look at the original design?

LD: Yes. Ian Andrews is the architect they’re using. He’s studied Stanley Thompson’s courses so he knows how to restore the course to its original design.

GC: I understand you had a little weather trouble here last year.

LD: Last year we had a major storm; they spent $1 million putting the course back together. The rivers overflowed. There’s still sodding going on. We even got the Club members on No. 6 to go out and rake some of the sediment to help get the course open.

GC: I would have helped you if I’d been here. This golf course is a national treasure; you have to pitch in and take care of it.

LD: That’s the key: you have to get people thinking that way. A lot of people don’t think of the golf course when they’re out there chasing that little white ball around. There’s more to it than that; they’ve got to realize that. And don’t forget: this golf course is part of a National Park.

GC: Well, Highlands Links is surely a gem that must be experienced when you visit Cape Breton. And Lloyd, just to be clear … when I said “I would have helped you if I’d been here,” please understand that I was referring to a supervisory position. Not actual manual labor.

(laughter)

Thanks for your time, Lloyd.

LD: You’re welcome.

Jim Flick

Golf Conversations: How many dogs have you had in your life?

Jim Flick: I had one growing up; my granddad had one. A mutt – a lab-German Shepherd mix. With my first wife, we had a little poodle. And then Charlie. The others, I liked them. But as I said, with Charlie, I’m pathetic.

GC: What prompted you to get Charlie?

JF: Geri got Charlie for herself because she was lonely. She found Charlie down in Temecula which is a very hot city out in the desert. And with Charlie’s black coat, he was really struggling. So Geri fell in love with him when she saw him and wanted to get him to Carlsbad where the weather wasn’t so hot. He’s a Goldendoodle with very heavy, thick hair.

Carlsbad is really good for him. In the summertime, the minute he goes outside, he starts looking for the shade.

(laughter)

It’s amazing how they get in your heart, don’t they? I needn’t tell you – you feel the same way.

GC: Did you get Charlie as a puppy?

JF: He was 7 months old.

GC: How’d you find him?

JF: Found him in a newspaper ad. Geri did.

GC: She knew she wanted a Goldendoodle?

JF: Yeah.

GC: Is your wife allergic? Is that why she was looking for a Goldendoodle?

JF: No. She wanted a dog that didn’t shed.

GC: Oh. So she found this dog in Temecula. How did you feel about getting a dog?

JF: I was ok with it because I thought it would help Geri. But I didn’t have any strong feelings about it.The family that he came from had 5 children and 2 other dogs. When Charlie came to our house he was very sad. Because he was missing his family.

I began to feel bad for him so I tried to pet him a bit and give him some attention and he got me.

GC: So he responded to you quickly?

JF: Well, it took him a couple of months. He obeyed very well, Robert, but with no outward emotion. He just did what he was told. There was no disagreement but there was no body language of him being happy.

GC: Many people have told me that it takes a long time to get used to you.

(laughter)

When you come home after being away from him for a few hours…

JF: Oh, my.

GC: …how does he react to you?

JF: The tail is going, he’s jumping up and down, leaning on me, circling around me.

GC: That’s great.

JF: I’m sure Wolfie does the same thing to you.

GC: Wolfie is more of a cat than a dog.

JF: Really?

GC: Yeah. He’ll be upstairs and when I come home, he’s not coming downstairs to greet you. He’ll thump his tail but he’s not getting up. Wolfie thinks the whole world revolves around him. He’s like the Tiger Woods of dogs.

(laughter)

Have you taken Charlie to the golf course or to the range?

JF: Oh, yeah.

GC: Is Charlie allowed to go into “The Kingdom”?

JF: I’ve had him in “The Kingdom” 3 times. But I don’t make a habit of it.

Jim & Charlie Flick

GC: Obviously, you don’t want him there when you’re giving a lesson. But what was his reaction when he was on the range for the first time?

JF: He enjoys the range; he loves the grass.

GC: I think you could probably charge more for a lesson if you brought Charlie with you.

JF: Oh, there’s no question!

GC: Something to think about: make Charlie into a profit center.

(laughter)

Hey, does your wife play golf?

JF: She does, but she hasn’t played in 5 years.

GC: When you first met her, was she interested in playing golf?

JF: I wanted her to play but she doesn’t have any passion for it.

GC: She loved you for you; not because, “I’m having trouble cutting my 2-iron – help me!”

(laughter)

JF: No, no. A very independent lady. And very, very bright. Much brighter than I am.

GC: Well, of course. You’re a golf teacher.

JF: Right. Not a very bright guy!

(laughter)

GC: Did she know that you were a famous golf teacher when she met you?

JF: Yeah, I think so. But she thought Arnold Palmer was a sweater designer.

(laughter)

She saw his label on sweaters. She knew there was an Arnold Palmer but she didn’t know much about his golf.

GC: Earlier, you were talking about your chest facing the ball at impact. In Gardner Dickinson’s book, Let ‘Er Rip, in one of his drills, he tells you to imagine at impact, both shoulders are looking down at the ball. Which, I think, is similar to what you’re saying.

JF: Right.

GC: He was a wonderful writer. I can read that book over and over.

JF: Gardner was a very bright man. His IQ was incredible.

GC: I believe he went to LSU and got his degree in Psychology.

JF: That’s correct.

GC: When someone who’s never played golf says to me, “Hey, Robert, I want to learn how to play golf,” I always recommend your book, On Golf. Or some of Bob Toski’s books.

But do you have certain teachers that you recommend if someone can’t get to see you in California?

JF: There aren’t many guys that I really trust. There are a few. But not many. They don’t have the experience, they don’t make the same judgment calls, they don’t have the same priority list. It’s a very good question because it’s hard … I don’t know, Robert. I’m gonna have to think about that one a little bit.

GC: Ok, that’s fair. But as I said, I always recommend On Golf. It’s fun; it’s got a nice tone to it as well as being instructive. Oh, that reminds me: In On Golf, when you talk about the sand game… you say to open the club face, have the shaft pointing a little bit backwards…

JF: Right.

GC: …I don’t recall you saying anything about the stance. Often they tell you to open your stance when you’re playing a sand shot.

JF: I think that’s kind of negotiable. Some guys that get the club too inside, yeah, I would open them up. Other people, I don’t get them too open. The thing about writing a book is … you just can’t express it so that it’s broad enough to take care of everybody. That’s the scary part. The truth is, I think people are better off if you start them with drills and the short game area.

I think Bob Toski said it better than anybody: you learn to play the game from the green back to the tee, not from the tee to the green.

GC: Which is what Mr. Penick said as well.

JF: Did he?

GC: Oh, yeah.

JF: I 100% agree with that. I think you’ve got to teach people to feel and use the golf club where they can conceive what they’re doing with it. Putting and chipping first.

GC: Not sexy enough.

JF: Not sexy enough, that’s right. You’re right. That’s why I’m kind of hedging about the way to start people. Because I think they’re better off with doing some short game stuff. And getting the feeling of swinging the club. And the sense of feeling the energy that the ball gets through the use of a putter.

GC: What do you think about this belly putter craze of the last few months? You don’t look happy with that question.

JF: I’m not too sure I think it’s the right thing to be happening. But it’s been in play too long now for it to be changed. I read something that Al Barkow wrote in one of the magazines: he feels like the long putter makes you use your dominant arm. I think that’s a very good point. I know Jack feels like his right arm controls the speed of his stroke … as does Tiger. Stockton will tell you it’s your left arm. I’ve always taught left arm but I’m beginning to believe that maybe that’s not the only way to do it.

GC: Did you hear about the proctologist who invented the rectal putter?

(laughter)

You insert it back there, it’s affixed to your body, and all you do is swing your hips.

(laughter)

It takes your hands out of the putting stroke!

(laughter)

JF: Oh, yeah.

GC: If you can attach the putter to your belly or to your chin, why not back there? I can see you 3 o’clock in the morning selling this in an infomercial.

JF: Oh, yeah!

GC: Yeah, that would be great for your reputation!

(laughter)

That would be the end of you!

JF: You are so right!

GC: Ok, let’s leave the rectal putter behind us. Would you care to share with me your top-ten favorite golf courses?

JF: #1 is Royal County Down in Ireland. #2 is Ballybunion. #3 is Cypress Point. #4 would probably be Shinnecock Hills. #5, probably Pebble Beach. #6, maybe Turnberry. #7, The National up in New York.

GC: You’re a real links guy, aren’t you?

JF: #8, Milwaukee Country Club.

GC: Whoa!

JF: It’s a really special golf course.

GC: Is that where Manuel De La Terre teaches?

JF: Yes.

GC: He’s an Ernest Jones guy, right? “Swing the clubhead?”

JF: Yes, he is. He’s an Ernest Jones guy; you are correct. I have not played San Francisco Golf Club. I hear it’s a very nice golf course.

GC: San Francisco Golf Club? Not Harding Park?

JF: No, no. San Francisco Golf Club. It’s a very special, blue-blood club.

GC: No wonder I’ve never heard of it.

JF: I’d probably say Pinehurst No. 2 would be ninth. And #10 might be the Irish Course at Whistling Straits.

GC: When I was there, I only played Whistling Straits.

JF: I liked the Irish Course better. It’s a little more right in front of you. You know exactly what you’re getting when you’re playing.

GC: I do remember being on the tops of many hills looking for my golf ball at Whistling Straits.

JF: So many of the fairways are at angles, Robert. If you don’t know the golf course, you don’t know where to try to drive your ball.

GC: Well, I did have a caddy. He said, “You want to go that way” and of course, I’d end up going in the opposite direction. But it was a beautiful course. And the best damned bathrooms I’ve ever seen. That Mr. Kohler … oh, does he give you a shower!

JF: He’s a pretty clever guy.

GC: And he’s got that hotel at St. Andrew’s.

JF: And he’s making a lot of money there.

GC: Good for him. Do you have a favorite golf club in your bag? One you feel really confident about?

JF: It used to be my 6-iron. When I was a decent player, I was a very poor driver. Now I’m enjoying driving my ball as I’m making some progress with my golf swing. I feel like I’m using my feet a lot better and I’m driving my ball much better.

GC: Speaking of feet, having you been wearing those new spikeless shoes? The adicross shoes?

JF: Yeah.

GC: Aren’t they more comfortable than the soft spikes?

JF: Yes.

GC: I wore them all day today.

JF: Me, too.

GC: Hybrids versus fairway woods?

JF: Which do I prefer? It depends upon the wind. If it’s windy, I prefer the hybrid. I can keep it a little lower.

GC: The smaller head of the hybrid inhibits me.

JF: Oh, does it?

GC: Yeah, I just like seeing a fairway wood. It gives me more confidence when I see a larger hunk of metal down there. Do you have a particular shot shape that you like to play?

JF: I prefer a slight draw. At my age, I need to get ground time when I can get it.

GC: But if a particular hole calls for a fade?

JF: I’m not playing that much that I can do that kind of thing often. I can mess around with it, but honestly … I can eliminate the left side of the golf course but I’m not so good at fading it.

GC: Well if you get a chance to see Mr. Nicklaus tomorrow, maybe he can give you some tips on how to fade the ball.

(laughter)

I understand he was good at that.

JF: No question.

(laughter)

Jim Flick & Robert Blumenthal

GC: Speaking of Mr. Nicklaus … what I love about Jack Nicklaus is that he’s so sincere and down-to-earth. Whenever any reporter asks him a question …

JF: He’s honest.

GC: … he’s honest but he never gives you that look, “What kind of stupid question was that?”  He’s always so polite and tries to give you a thoughtful answer to your question, no matter how dumb it might be.

And you’ve been very kind in answering my silly questions. Thanks again, Mr. Flick.

JF: You’re welcome, Robert.

Ted Stonehouse

Golf Conversations: Ted, did you grow up in Cape Breton?

Ted Stonehouse: No, I grew up in Stouffville, Ontario. It’s about 45 minutes northeast of Toronto. I started working at golf courses there when I was 11. Worked at Maples of Ballentrae for a year, then over at Sleepy Hollow for 6 years.

GC: What were you doing at age 11?

TS: I had the pleasure of hand-scrubbing 3 to 5,000 pond golf balls as fast as I could. And once the season started, I was picking up range balls. Got to meet Moe Norman and watched him hit balls on a regular basis.

GC: Had you taken lessons or did your Dad introduce you to the game?

TS: Dad played a little bit. But, no, it was something I kind of got interested in. I had to ride my bike to the course. Then at 11, I was at Maples of Ballantrea. You know Chico Maki from the Chicago Black Hawks?

GC: Yes.

TS: His son, Mike, played on the Canadian Tour, and he was an assistant pro at Maples of Ballantrea. I worked for him. That would have been around ’85 or ’86. I would caddie for Mike a little bit and that’s what got me hooked. Mike would play some of the pro events and I would go caddie for him.

GC: What was it like interacting with Moe Norman? I know he wasn’t the most verbal person.

TS: Moe was pretty quiet. Stayed pretty much to himself. I was one of the lucky ones who was still around when he was still hitting the ball well. He was doing shows and just coming out of his prime. He hit the ball so unbelievably. He’d hit 100 golf balls with the same club and they’d all land in the same area, not much larger than this table.

There was a barn at the end of the range. I swear he hit the same board on the barn 265 yards away the 4 or 5 times out of the 6 times he hit the driver. His tee never moved. He was really unique.

GC: Did you ever try to emulate his swing with the wide stance and the palm grip?

TS: No. But he always had sayings. He came in the shop one day and he kept talking about “hope and fear, hope and fear.” If you remember back in 1990 when Tiger Woods had hit it in the water on 17 at TPC Sawgrass…

Moe Norman came in a week later and was saying, “Hope and fear, hope and fear. Everybody talks about Tiger Woods. They say he’s the best player that ever played. I’m the best player that ever played. I never miss a shot. Tiger Woods … hope and fear.”

I said to him, “Hope and fear. I don’t understand what you mean.”

In essence what he was saying, if you’re hoping you’re gonna hit the shot, then you’re fearing something. If you’re fearing the shot, then you’re gonna only hope that you’re gonna hit it there. You can’t be thinking that way; you’ve got to be focused on where it’s gonna go and know you’re gonna hit it there. And just hit it.

GC: He had kind of a baseball grip, didn’t he?

TS: Dave Barr had a baseball grip. But Moe had a pretty traditional grip. I can’t remember if it was interlock. I remember seeing that his hands were crooked because he’d hit so many balls.

GC: Wow.

TS: You’d see Moe out of the blue; he’d just show up. I was fortunate because I was young enough to have had a chance to see him when he was really hitting the ball well. As he got in his later years, he still hit the ball very well, but to me, things got exaggerated. Like his stance.

GC: And his backswing was like hardly anything, right?

TS: Yeah, very short.

GC: Did you guys ever discuss the swing?

TS: I was always a little bit nervous when he came in. I don’t want to say I was awestruck. All the pros thought the world of him. They were careful to make sure that the pros beneath them understood Moe, where he’s been, the importance of Moe. You would sit down with your pro and talk about what Moe meant. And Moe thought the world of the pros. He didn’t want to have anything to do with anybody else.

GC: Which is the only thing I have in common with Moe Norman.

(laughter)

TS: I turned pro in Halifax at Granite Springs. Then I went to Ashburn Golf Club as an assistant pro, then a year after that I took the position of General Manager and Head Pro here at Bell Bay.

Bell Bay Golf Club

GC: I read that you went to school in South Carolina. What prompted you to go there?

TS: Rob Roxborough — who’s the Director of Golf at Magna Golf Club in Ontario — he was on a golf scholarship in the US and he encouraged me. So I did my research, got myself a scholarship, and off I went.

GC: What was the name of the school?

TS: Southern Wesleyan University is what it is now. It was Central Wesleyan College at the time.

GC: How does one go about getting a golf scholarship?

TS: It’s a lot different than when I went. Now you have a lot of web-based recruitment sites. And through the web, coaches can find a lot of information about players. Junior Golf Scoreboard is one that ranks kids across North America.  Brendan Ryan is probably one of the leading golf recruiters in North America right now.

GC: For college golf?

TS: For college golf. And we’ve connected him with some kids I’ve got … one of our Nova Scotia development players who’s on Team Canada now, Eric Banks, is going to University of Florida this year.  We have another one, Brett McKinnon, going to Jacksonville University in Florida.

If they’re going to try for a scholarship, they need to make sure they’re playing in the properly ranked events. Whether it’s the AJGA in the States or in Canada, it’s the Future Links program through Golf Canada.

GC: How did you get your scholarship?

TS: Back then, it was a lot of letter writing. Starting in Grade 10, I started writing to schools. I drew a line across a map. In essence, I said, “I’m going south of the Mason-Dixon Line.”

GC: You wanted warmer weather for practicing…

TS: Absolutely. Playing all year ‘round. So I started writing to schools and they wrote back. We kept communicating, they watched the scores, and away I went.

GC: Did you have a full ride?

TS: I went to a smaller NAIA school, so I got a partial scholarship. That was great, a lot of fun, a great experience, and good golf.

GC: Did you do any studying at school or were you just drinking Molson’s?

(laughter)

TS: I took Business Administration with a major in Accounting. I used the golf to help pay for that.

GC: So you actually had an education?

TS: Absolutely.

GC: Well some of these kids get these golf scholarships and all they do is play golf.

TS: It is different now. There’s a young kid out of Texas who comes up and has a summer home in Nova Scotia. He’s going to one of those schools where they go to school three hours a day and golf the rest of the day. There are those programs out there – private schools that are customizing to golf.

GC: When you were in college, did you have any aspirations to be a tour player?

TS: Yes. I had the opportunity to meet Hugh Royer III; he’s from Aiken, South Carolina. I got to see how good he was and how much better he was than I would anticipate being. I got to hang out with a lot of his buddies: Nolan Henke, Tom Lehman. That was really neat to get to meet those guys. But for me it was kind of natural to become a club pro.

GC: In the US, there’s a PGA certification program. Is there a similar program in Canada?

TS: Absolutely. A pretty substantial one here in Canada. A strong academic side along with your playing ability.

GC: Do you remember how you did in your Playing Ability Test?

TS: I remember making my last putt to get my card. It’s almost like a mini-Q School. Back when I did it, we use to have to play 36 holes in one day.

GC: Did you pass the first time?

TS: The second time. The first time I missed by two shots. Then I went back the next week and got it.

GC: How did the position here at Bell Bay come about?

TS: They advertised for a Director of Golf. I applied for the position and got it.

GC: What year was this?

TS: January of 1999. So this will be my 13^th year here.

GC: When did Bell Bay open?

TS: The Fall of ’97. It was Golf Digest’s Best New Course in Canada in 1998. And in Score magazine, we’ve been as low as 41^st in Canada.

GC: I don’t know about 41^st, but Bell Bay’s in my top-five.

TS: That’s great. Have you played five courses in Canada?

GC: No.

(laughter)

I’ve played three. So it’s definitely in my Top-Three. Hey, I saw the video of your team. I noticed that all of them except one is a lefty.

TS: And now I have four lefties.

GC: Are you discriminating against righties?

(laughter)

TS: I wish I had more.

GC: More righties?

TS: Yes. It’s hard to do golf schools when you need to demonstrate something right-handed for the person that’s learning.

GC: Ted, I am available. You’ve seen me play, you know what I can do. And I’d be happy to impart that knowledge to your members and students: “You see how I’m swinging this club? DON’T do it this way!”

(laughter)

It’s called the “Negative School of Golf Instruction.” DON’T DO THIS!

(laughter)

TS: You did flush one there on 18 today. That was a sweet drive.

GC: Waitress: give this man whatever he wants!

(laughter)

So I understand that Weirsy was here.

TS: Weirsy was here with Wayne Gretzky, Joe Sakic, and Brett Hull.

GC: Brett Hull can kill it!

TS: He played unbelievable. I think Weir on his own ball was 74 that day. I think Hull was 76 on his own ball. Joe Sakic was scared to death on the first tee. Just really uncomfortable with the whole thing. We had a couple of thousand people lining the fairways and these guys were totally out of their element. It would be like us strapping on the blades and playing hockey in front of two or three thousand people.

Poor Weirsy; it was his first day with those new sticks. It was brutal.

GC: What had he been playing previous to TaylorMade?

TS: He was playing Wilson for a long time. We walked down the first fairway; he hit a good 3-wood right down the gut. I was looking in his bag … it was all these new irons but no driver or fairway metals that were new. I think it was part of that contractual thing with TaylorMade at the time when they were trying to fit him.

They made him about three sets of clubs. I think they were like 100 grand each.

GC: 100 GRAND???

TS: They were custom grinding the actual heads…

GC: What were they made out of? Gold?

TS: I understand that it was crazy expensive. I don’t know enough about it, but I thought it was a little high. I think because they had a particular person hand forging these things for him and he had three sets that he went through until they got it right.

Ted Stonehouse & Robert Blumenthal

GC: This is my first time in Baddeck. It’s charming. I like that it’s free of all the ugly commercialism.

TS: The one thing about Nova Scotia, especially Cape Breton, is there are so many places in North America that have become so touristy. But Baddeck still has that quaint sense of community. You don’t necessarily have that everywhere.

GC: There aren’t that many places left in the U.S. that look unique. They all have the McDonald’s, the pizza places, the Wal-Marts, the Walgreens. You can go from the Atlantic to the Pacific and you see the same garbage in every town in America.

I love coming to a place like Cape Breton where it’s pretty.

TS: There’s probably only two courses in all of Nova Scotia that have houses all over them. The rest of them are still pretty untouched.

Bell Bay is a great golf course. We’ve hosted the 2005 Canadian Amateur, we’ve hosted Gretzky & Friends, we’ve hosted two Canadian Club Championships, we’ve hosted three Future Links Atlantic Championships; it’s got that championship style layout that people love.

GC: It’s a gorgeous course. But I think some of that high, wispy grass … you can could trim that a little for some golfers who haven’t the skills you and I have.

(laughter)

TS: Encroaching the fairway a little too much?

GC: A little bit. I think you could get rid of that stuff.

(laughter)

But I enjoyed  Bell Bay very much. I wish I could spend a week here and play it every day, enjoy charming Baddeck, and then go over to your house for dinner.

(laughter)

Thanks for the hospitality, Ted.

TS: You’re welcome. We enjoyed having you.

**********************************************

Ted Stonehouse has since departed Bell Bay Golf Club for his new position as Director of Golf at Clovelly Golf Club in Newfoundland. Best wishes and success at Clovelly, Ted.

“[Build] … a high-speed bullet train from Nova Scotia to here. You play Cabot Links — aka Keiser East — in Canada, jump on the train, head to Oregon…”

Of course, I made this suggestion in jest. My hope at the time was to loosen up Jeff a little bit so he’d comp me with a Bandon Dunes visor. When Jeff sat there like an oil painting, I realized that the visor would not be forthcoming. But that’s another story.

THE story is this: I received a phone call yesterday from Mike Keiser. He had read my interview with Jeff and had some news for me. Here is the transcript of that telephone conversation:

Mike Keiser

Mike Keiser: Robert, I’m sorry I didn’t get a chance to see you last August when you were at Bandon. I was in a helicopter showing some guests the new par-3 course under development, Bandon Preserve.

Golf Conversations: Not a problem, Mr. Keiser. Most people avoid me by turning around and walking the other way. You’re the first guy who’s used a helicopter to give me the slip.

(laughter)

MK: Not true, not true. And fyi, Bandon Preserve is now open and we’re excited about it because all net proceeds from the course will benefit The Wild Rivers Coast Alliance.

GC: A noble undertaking, indeed. Good for you. But for future reference: I like helicopter rides, too.

(laughter)

MK: Duly noted. But I’m calling you today with some exciting news. I read the Jeff Simonds interview where you suggested I build a high-speed bullet train connecting my two courses: Bandon Dunes in Oregon with Cabot Links in Nova Scotia, Canada.

GC: Ka-ching! I’ll take my finder’s fee as a certified check! Here’s my FedEx account number; send it Priority Overnight! Holy haggis, what am I saying? Mr. Keiser, your personal check is good with me.

(laughter)

MK: Whoa! Hold on, there. Your bullet-train idea, at first glance, is a bit … well, off the wall. And I certainly don’t have deep enough pockets for such an undertaking.

GC: Start charging more for hot dogs at the turn house.

(laughter)

MK: No, I’m afraid that won’t do it. But I must say your idea got me to thinking. This would be an amazing journey for golfers who want the ultimate adventure: to play links courses beside both the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans.

Bandon Dunes/Cabot Links Bullet Train

I ran your bullet-train idea past Ben Cowan-Dewar, the managing partner of Cabot Links. You interviewed Ben in Nova Scotia last July and he spoke highly of you. Ben has some contacts in the Canadian federal government and he mentioned your idea to them. Surprisingly, they expressed some interest in it.

GC: I love the Canadians! They really understand that I’m a golf visionary.

(laughter)

And you’re not so bad yourself.

(laughter)

MK: I noticed that you referred to me as “Kaiser Keiser” in your Bandon Dunes travelogue.

GC: No disrespect intended there. You’ve done some wonderful things for golf, Herr Keiser.

MK: Thank you. But getting back to your bullet-train idea … Ben’s government contacts found it interesting and formed an exploratory committee to investigate it further.

GC: And they want to hire me as a paid consultant? Like I said, I love the Canadians!

MK: Amazingly, they didn’t wish to retain your consulting services. But they did assemble a blue-ribbon panel of Canadian golf and tourist officials who, after several weeks of discussion, expressed interest in pursuing your idea … with one stipulation.

GC: Let me guess: that I get to play free golf in Canada for the rest of my life.

MK: No. The stipulation is that the U.S. government comes in as a 50-50 partner in the venture. I know a few people in Chicago who know some pretty high-up folks in Washington and your idea reached the desk of a policy guy at the White House.

GC: I can’t believe I’m hearing this.

MK: The Department of Transportation got together with its Canadian counterpart – Transport Canada – and they did a preliminary feasibility study. Much more needs to be done – including an environmental impact study – but the bottom line is both governments like your idea. They think it would be good for tourism, plus it would create approximately 200,000 new manufacturing, engineering, and construction jobs.

GC: I’m speechless.

(laughter)

How much do they think this will cost?

MK: They have a ballpark figure of $3 billion dollars. That’s US. dollars.

GC: And the two governments are going halvsies on that amount?

MK: They’ll sort that out later. It depends on a lot of factors. Ottawa and Washington are going to release a joint announcement regarding the bullet train on Monday, April 2nd. But I wanted to give you a heads-up and let you know that your idea is under serious consideration. That’s quite a feather in your cap.

[A long period of silence ensues.]

Robert? Are you still there?

GC: Traditionally, a finder’s fee is 10%. But I don’t want to be a piggy so if I agreed to just half of that – 5% – do you realize that 5% of $3 billion is $150 million???

MK: Robert, I don’t want to burst your balloon but the US and Canadian governments are not going to pay you a $150 million finder’s fee.

GC: Listen, Mike, babe … thanks for getting in touch. Gotta call my CPA. And don’t forget about my idea for that monorail at Bandon Dunes — get rid of those shuttle vans. And that one’s a freebie! Take my advice: start charging more for hot dogs. See ya!

To my friends and readers in the U.S., Canada, and around the world: I wish you all a happy April Fool’s Day! And if a Bandon Dunes/Cabot Links bullet train ever leaves the realm of fantasy and becomes a reality, rest assured that GolfConversations.com will be the first media outlet to break the story.

I had a telephone conversation with Rick in early January of this year which follows below. Then we met in person at the PGA Show in Orlando where I was able to sample the Martin Golf Apparel goods myself. Let me tell you: Rick’s Peruvian Pima is primo!

Rick Martin

Golf Conversations: I saw your website with your video. You’ve got some beautiful golf shirts.

Rick Martin: Everyone asks me, why, at my advanced stage in life, why would I be interested in coming back into the business? So I had to do that video to keep the questions at a minimum.

GC: Or to show everybody you were still alive.

(laughter)

RM: Exactly! I’ve been sitting on a park bench feeding the pigeons for the last five years.

(laughter)

It never gets out of your system. I’ve been in the apparel business my whole life. I stand for a particular taste level and thank goodness there are still people out there that respect and understand what I try to do. It’s been gratifying; we launched in July and planned to start delivering in January for spring. But we had such interest that we accelerated delivery to November and we’ve already gotten re-orders from several major clubs.

GC: I don’t know if you know this, but last year I interviewed Andy Bell, who is with Fairway & Greene. And Andy had mentioned that you were The Man at Fairway & Greene until not that long ago.

RM: Yeah, I started it. When I sold that company to the investment group, I tried to communicate to them that we had a particular niche in the market place. It was primarily a pure-finish, natural fiber niche. At the end of the day, that seemed to have changed as the wind changes.

Anyone who’s had a business that they’ve started – with a vision of what they want it to be – sometimes when they sell it, the vision changes to more of a profit motive. And, therefore, decisions are made by people that don’t have it in the gut; they’ve got it on the balance sheet. That’s what happens to most companies that have a change in direction and that’s what happened to my old company.

GC: When did you sell Fairway & Greene?

RM: I had a five-year non-compete. It ended in 2011, so I sold it in 2006. That’s why I was on the park bench for five years.

(laughter)

GC: While you were feeding the pigeons for those five years, did you have it in the back of your mind that when your non-compete expired you would …

RM: I had no interest or desire to come back into the business. My daughter Teri – who was with me from the get-go at Fairway & Greene – she’s the one who convinced me that I needed to come back in. And she’s joined me … that’s why I call this company Martin instead of Rick Martin because she’s Teri Martin and she will carry a certain load with this brand for as long as she wants to.

Teri and Rick Martin

GC: Rick, this is like The Godfather, Part III: just when you thought you were out, they dragged you back in!

(laughter)

RM: Teri has a very strong taste level of her own but she also knew that we needed the impetus of my name behind it to start the company. But she’s very much involved in the product development with me. She’s just wonderful.

GC: If what your company stands for is impeccable taste, I think you’re going to run into trouble by letting me interview you.

(laughter)

RM: Not true, I’ve heard nice things about you. Mary Beth speaks very highly of you. [EDITOR’S NOTE: “Mary Beth” heads her own PR Firm – Mary Beth Lacy, Inc. – and is the publicist for Martin Golf Apparel.]

GC: She should. I send Mary Beth 20 bucks every month to help keep me in golf shirts.

(laughter)

RM: She’s been a God-send to me because in the five years I was away, the media industry in golf has changed dramatically. Everybody sort of looks alike. So she’s been able to go through the weeds, if you will, and has been instrumental in getting me into blogs and websites and videos and things I would have never have thought about five years ago.

GC: Well, you’re definitely going to be on my website. Which, by the way, isn’t like any other web site out there. I’m kind of like the Rick Martin of golf web sites. And did I mention to you that I take a size Large in a golf shirt?

RM: You didn’t but I’m sure Mary Beth knows that…

(laughter)

GC: Ok, ok, don’t listen to me. I’m just kidding you.

(laughter)

RM: We want you all to have our shirts. You put them side by side with the things you have in your closet and you’ll see immediately why we’re back in business and doing it in an even better way this time around.

Finishing in cotton yarn has improved dramatically so we’re very, very pleased with it. And we’ve always maintained a certain type of basic yarn. The industry itself – when it got away from cotton and was driven by a lot of price decisions – I think a lot of the companies that used to use a higher quality Pima yarn, have gone to what they call Z.M. fabric.

GC: What’s that?

RM: It’s basically an assortment of different countries all assembling their yarns in a holding area and then they pick out what they want. So sometimes you can get uneven lengths of skeins and you’ll wind up with a fabric that’s not as good as it should be. All of our yarn skeins are exactly the same length; they’re all long staple and they’re all from one place.

GC: Rick, when I see cotton shirts, I often see the word “mercerized.” Explain, please.

RM: Mercerization is in the eyes of the beholder; it’s very much like a cook in a kitchen. Julia Child’s going to cook differently than Martha Stewart. They can use the same ingredients but they approach the cooking differently.

The same thing is true when you do the finishing of yarn. The finishing we use on our yarns is proprietary and unique to us. We don’t share it with anybody. We also don’t share any of our mills or factories with anybody. That’s something I’ve learned in my years in the apparel business – particularly when retailers are now manufacturers and manufacturers have their own outlet stores. You’ve got to have the ability to keep these people out of your shops because they’ll go in there and knock you off before you get to your first appointment.

GC: But let’s get back to that Z.M. thing you were talking about.

RM: Z.M. is a term. It’s a Pima yarn that is less expensive because it comes from various countries. There’s not the attention to the length of the skeins. So they’re not as discriminating. So if you start with a less expensive yarn and you don’t finish it with any consistency, you’re gonna wind up with a less-than-desirable lisle product. Lisle is our primary base cloth.

What got me into coming back … I saw so many shirts in the marketplace, not only in the golf shops but in fine retail stores … I knew they were using this cotton yarn because there was a lot of wrinkling. It had kind of a pre-washed look to it; that was a fashion look.

So these guys thought, why spend money on all these long-staple cotton yarns when we’re just gonna wash it and beat it up anyway? And that kind of washed over into the better golf shirt business.

If you put my shirt down with anybody else’s shirt, you’ll see the difference immediately.

GC: Not to beat a dead sheep, but do the initials Z.M. stand for something?

RM: They probably do and I don’t know what they stand for. It’s like Frigidaire or Stetson. It could have been somebody’s brand at one time but it’s become synonymous with a lower-priced cotton yarn.

GC: Ok, got it. Now let me ask you about the move over the last ten years into polyester. Which the industry has re-branded as a “performance product.” And all of this wicking stuff. When my contemporaries were wearing disco shirts – God forgive them – in the mid ‘70s, polyester was a very hot fabric. I guess they’ve made it more comfortable over the last 10 years, more wickable. Is that what happened?

RM: Yes. A synthetic yarn doesn’t behave like a natural yarn behaves. The whole reason for polyester was the care aspect. The same is true now for synthetic golf shirts. There’s a market for that and I would never, ever say anything ill of that. We have things we wear in our lives that have that component. My running shirts and shorts are made of that fabric.

I’ve always thought that cotton is the quintessential golf shirt fabric. It’s the one that behaves and performs the longest. Most synthetic shirts don’t have a lifespan. I don’t know if it’s because of the way they’re knitted or what. People get rid of ‘em and get new ones. And that’s part of the planned obsolescence of the stuff.

Most of the shirts you see in golf shops today could be worn on the professional bowling tour.

Rick Martin

GC: Rick, you live Texas, right?

RM: Yes, I live in Dallas.

GC: Ok. It’s July in Dallas … you’re playing golf; it’s 100 degrees, the humidity is 90% and you’re wearing one of your beautiful all-cotton shirts. After 1 hour, the shirt is soaking wet, is it not?

RM: If you’re talking about high humidity, there’s no difference to me between a polyester shirt and a cotton shirt as far as appearance goes if you’re sweating profusely in it.

The difference is, when you sweat in a polyester shirt, the sweat stays on your skin and runs down into your pants. Whereas if you sweat in a cotton shirt, the cotton absorbs the sweat.

GC: Right.

RM: And when cotton absorbs the sweat, as it continues to breathe, it evaporates. On a hot, humid day, there’s nothing worse to wear for me – for my body – than a polyester shirt.

GC: So Rick, what are they talking about when they say these shirts wick away the perspiration?

RM: Wicking, to me, is when fabric will take the moisture from the body, draw it from the body, and wick it out into the atmosphere. For my money, the best fabric for that has always been an all-cotton, a pique stitch, which is an elliptical stitch that acts like a little circle.

The original Lacoste shirt – the René Lacoste shirt which became the Izod shirt – was a meshed shirt that was worn to play tennis because it did wick the moisture away from the body.

What happened with the apparel in golf is directly related to what’s happened to clubs and equipment. The world has gone to titanium and dimples and flex shafts and graphite, etc. And it was very easy to kind of glom on to that technology and talk about performance shirts.

It’s all a matter of what somebody wants. I’m not putting my shirt against anybody’s shirt as far as what is the best shirt for you. You decide for yourself what’s best.

What I say is my customer is a club guy. I’m probably the only golf manufacturer that doesn’t sell to any retail stores. Doesn’t sell to any off-course golf shops. I only sell to private clubs. Because private clubs have a membership that is, generally speaking, attuned to cotton or natural fibers. And certainly to more sophisticated coloring and less like bowling shirts.

And by the way, the conditions of the marketplace today are almost identical to what they were in 1996 when I started Fairway & Greene.

GC: How so?

RM: You could interchange labels on anybody’s shirt in the pro shop and not know whose shirt it is. They all look alike. They all subscribe to the same color service. They all go to the same mills. They all go to the same button maker. They all copy the other guy’s hang tag.

The other day, I was asked by another interviewer about whom I consider to be my competition. And I said, “I look at my competition in the eye every morning when I’m shaving.” I do what I do. I don’t do what the other guys do. They do whatever they want to do, that’s their business. I know who my customer is. How can I make it better for him? How can I make him feel more comfortable in it and how can I get him to buy more of what I do?

GC: I’ve purchased some 100% cotton shirts that look weathered. You put them in the washing machine and the dryer and the collars come out all bent and they never look the same again. I assume that’s because the cotton is of an inferior quality?

RM: It’s also the way it’s constructed. The one thing you’ll find about a Martin golf shirt is that you buy your true size in my shirt. You don’t upsize it because you think it’s going to shrink. It doesn’t. We shrink 2% over the life of the garment, which is nil. A lot of cotton shirts like you’re talking about, they’ll shrink 8-9%.

GC: I’ve noticed that.

RM: When I first went into the business, we were competing against the Ashworth company who was using an interlock cotton fabric which shrinks like a bandit – like 9, 10%. So everybody who was buying an Ashworth shirt – me included – was buying a bigger size because we knew it was going to shrink when we washed it.

I came out with Fairway & Greene and I was getting calls from customers: “Your shirts are too big!” I told them, “If your customer’s a large, sell him a large; not an extra-large.”

GC: What happens to the collars, though?

RM: It’s because they’re not properly constructed. We do what’s called a double-lock collar. It’s the way we construct it, the types of yarns, and the number of ends we use. Again, it’s proprietary. Our shirts never curl.

That was one of the strongest suits with my other company: the collar was such a beautiful thing. You took it out of the dryer; you didn’t have to iron it. In the early days, some of the guys on tour would call me. I’d say, “You need some more shirts?”

They’d say, “No we don’t need any more shirts. I got the 6 or 8 you sent me last season. Put a little obsolescence in your product.”

I said, “That’s not what we do here.” The whole idea of this kind of shirt is longevity.

GC: Who were some of the tour guys who didn’t want more shirts?

RM: Andy Bean, Leonard Thompson, Gil Morgan, those were some of the early guys who wore our shirts way back then.

GC: That doesn’t sound like tour pros. They want all the free stuff they can get.

(laughter)

RM: No, they didn’t. Believe me.

GC: I must have them confused with me. I want all the free stuff I can get.

(laughter)

RM: Leonard Thompson only wore either yellow or white. Gil Morgan always wore white. And I never paid anybody to wear my shirt. I had 27 guys on the tour in the early days. We just started our first guy on the tour wearing a Martin golf shirt – I can’t tell you his name. I never paid anybody a nickel and I will not start now.

GC: But you’ve got someone lined up now for the PGA Tour or the Champions Tour?

RM: The big tour.

GC: How would you like to be the official apparel provider for GolfConversations.com? Don’t answer yet. Just think about it.

RM: I’ll think about it. I don’t know what that entails but the idea that someone would want to do that with my product would make me lean very heavily toward doing that. I think the whole idea is: you associate quality with quality.

GC: You don’t want to associate with me then.

(laughter)

"Martin Golf shirts have made me a scratch golfer."

RM: No, Mary Beth said you’re high quality.

(laughter)

GC: I’ve bought all-cotton shirts and I just hate it when I take them out of the dryer and the collar is curled and bent.

RM: If you wore a Martin golf shirt, you’ll see what the difference is. Again, I came back in the business for one reason: people are not doing a better shirt anymore. When I started, there was Como and Descente and they’re gone.

There’s a four-letter brand that’s all over the marketplace and yet they’ve got Z.M. fabric in their golf line.

GC: If you buy a shirt that’s going to wear well and last for 6-8 years … in the long run, it’s cheaper than buying the crappy cotton shirt that looks awful after 4 washes.

RM: Absolutely.

GC: Rick, I’m sure you’ve seen these younger golfers who walk around with their caps on backwards.

RM: Yes.

GC: To reach those guys, do you have any plans to sell cotton shirts you can wear inside out?

(laughter)

RM: My customers wear visors.

(laughter)

GC: So you’re not making 100% Pima cotton tank tops?

(laughter)

RM: Not at all. Nor short-shorts.

GC: Anything for the ladies or is it all for men?

RM: It’s in our DNA to do it.

GC: I think it’s in Teri’s DNA to do it.

(laughter)

RM: Exactly.

GC: Well, I’m looking forward to meeting you at the PGA Show.

RM: Thanks for calling, Robert.

GC: See you in Orlando.

[The following conversation took place at the Martin Golf Apparel room at the PGA Show]:

RM: The shirt you’re wearing is a pique. A pique is a way that cotton yarn is knitted; you get an elliptical hole in there and the idea is it makes it cooler to wear.

GC: I see.

RM: Ours is mercerized twice. Which gives it greater lustre and greater stability. The big problem with cotton is that it shrinks. Our mercerization process is such that we control that shrinkage; we keep it 2% or under. So when you buy one of my shirts, 10 washings later, you’re still wearing the same size.

GC: Double mercerization?

RM: Double. And the second part of it is the most complex and expensive. When people say “mercerized cotton,” many times it’s just the yarn they’re mercerizing. We mercerize the yarn, then we knit the pattern and mercerize the piece. The second part of the mercerization process is what gives the shirt its lustre.

GC: Where does the knitting take place?

RM: In a knitting factory.

(laughter)

GC: I had to go to the president of the company to get an answer to that question?

(laughter)

Contemplating life in a Martin Golf shirt

I could have asked the security guard outside and he would have given me the same answer.

(laughter)

RM: We knit this cloth in South Korea. I still believe that South Korea has the finest needle in the world – particularly for knitwear.

GC: Yesterday when I saw you on the floor, I was wearing a 100% cotton shirt, you immediately looked down on me…

RM: No!

GC: Rick, you looked down on me…

RM: Come on. You’re sure?

GC: I AM sure. You said I had no lustre!

RM: No, you have lustre. The shirt didn’t have lustre.

(laughter)

GC: I thought you said I didn’t have lustre. I called my therapist last night. I have enough problems with a low self-image and I don’t need you tearing me down.

(laughter)

RM: You see what you’re wearing here?

GC: Yeah, I see it. I’m the one who put it on after I took a shower this morning.

(laughter)

RM: You’re wearing a private label shirt made for a price point so they can make a lot of money.

GC: Capitalists!

(laughter)

RM: They also carry my shirt in their pro shop.

GC: But you’re not allowed to say the name of the club, are you?

RM: No, I’m not going to get anybody in trouble.

(laughter)

But all kidding aside, we use a natural fiber and we’re very concerned with the finishing process. Whether it’s an interlock like this or a magnificent alpaca wool sweater… everything we do is designed to give the customer a beautiful garment.

We waterfall different colors. In a particular range, we’ve got 7 colors. In the next range, we have 7 colors also. The pro shop is sort of the last specialty store on earth. It’s where the vendor – the pro or the buyer for the pro shop – knows its membership. So when they buy a line, they know who in their membership they’ve got in mind. It’s a very specialized business.

So when we do these different colors, the idea is that in a given market we might have 6 different clubs selling our product. I don’t want them all having the same thing. Many times, when I’m putting the line together, I’m thinking about that different variety of clubs.

GC: Let’s say there’s Club A in Dallas and Club B in Dallas. Club B comes in to see you and says, “I’d like to get a couple dozen of Style X” and Style X is what you’ve already sold to Club A.

RM: It usually doesn’t work that way. We try to steer them … they’re not coming in and order taking. Our guys will make a presentation to them. They already know that Club A has bought the navy so they’ll show Club B something slightly different.

And a lot of people in those markets belong to two clubs, so you don’t want them saying, “Oh, I got that shirt over at my other club.”

GC: Do they put their club logos on your shirts?

RM: Yes.

GC: Is that an important part of the sale?

RM: Very important.

GC: The shirts are made in South Korea. When are the logos applied?

RM: We do it ourselves in Wisconsin which is where we have our distribution facility. We have marvelous embroidery equipment. In fact, we get as many compliments on our embroidery as we do on our product.

[I point to the “famous” logo on my shirt]

RM: We do that.

GC: Let the record show that Mr. Martin looked at my logo and said, “We do that.”

(laughter)

Who designs your shirts?

RM: Me.

GC: You? You decide “let’s do a periwinkle blue with a canary trim”?

RM: I’m a rarity in the apparel business – not just the golf business, but the apparel business. I used to be president of both the Gant and Hathaway shirt companies.

GC: Were you the guy with the eye patch? The Ogilvy and Mather campaign?

RM: Ogilvy and Mather, yes.

GC: Oh my God: you’re the Hathaway Man!!!

(laughter)

RM: No, I was there when the Hathaway Man was created.

(laughter)

But here’s what I say to people: you’re looking at someone who’s in a very small fraternity: I’m the only non-Jewish, heterosexual clothing designer you’ll ever meet.

(laughter)

GC: Wait a minute. You’re heterosexual?

(laughter)

Take it from a Jewish heterosexual: your shirts are just beautiful. They feel like silk to the touch. If I ever got accepted to a private club where they sold your shirts, I’d be asking the pro when he was going to put them on sale.

(laughter)

RM: Here’s something else that most people don’t do. We do cotton sweaters and even the cotton yarn we use in our sweaters is double mercerized. So you have a beautiful sheen that you often don’t get in a cotton sweater.

Almost every sweater we do is fully fashioned. That means our sweaters are knitted one sweater at a time. They’re not cut in pieces and sewn together. Full fashion means that it’s knitted to size.

GC: Kind of like milled putters, in a way. They create the head and hosel out of one hunk of steel.

RM: That’s correct. Same thing.

GC: What kind of cotton do you use?

RM: Pima.

GC: And where does that come from?

RM: Peru. Peruvian Pima, we think, is the finest Pima cotton in the world. It’s long stapled, which gives it consistency. You’re not going to see what they call striation. See how clean this shirt is? There’s none of what looks like snow on a TV set. That’s because the yarn itself is consistent in length. So when you knit it, you have a smoothness because everything is the same length.

GC: Sometimes you get irregulars in the garment business.

RM: We don’t accept irregulars. Our factories are not allowed to do anything with the Martin label on them.

GC: Ok. Can you tell them to ship those directly to me? I’m not that picky.

(laughter)

RM: Ok, give me your card. I’ll do that!

(laughter)

They’re mostly Double X-Large so you can sleep in them.

(laughter)

GC: Forget it. What sizes do you have?

RM: We do Small to Double X. We don’t do Triple X.

GC: Hey, if you need to wear Triple X, you need to lose some weight.

(laughter)

Rick, do you make shirts for women?

RM: We will; we don’t at the moment. Our approach to womenswear is similar to men’s in this regard: women put things together better than men.

GC: And they’re put together better than men!

(laughter)

RM: Yes, they are.

GC: Spoken like a true heterosexual.

(laughter)

RM: We don’t want to create a situation where we are a collection. Meaning that you’re gonna have to have a shirt that goes with a sweater that goes with a skirt that goes with a sock. That’s not us. We want to have – just like we do in menswear – specialty item pieces. We call them “a cut above golf” – meaning, you can wear them beyond the golf course.

So our womenswear will be dedicated to a superior product that women will want to buy in more than one color.

GC: Just shirts, no skirts?

RM: No bottoms. That’s somebody else’s skill.

GC: Hey, the mercerization process… where did they come up with that name? Does it have anything to do with Johnny Mercer?

RM: No. And sanforized didn’t have anything to do with Fred Sanford.

(laughter)

GC: Oh, ‘Lizabeth, this is the Big One!

(laughter)

RM: In layman’s terms, it’s an impregnation of a cotton yarn.

GC: Hey, this is a family web site. Keep it clean!

(laughter)

RM: The process starts with us with the yarn, the long-staple cotton yarn. We then spin it into a single thread. We run that thread at a very high speed through a gas burner which burns all the impurities off the yarn. So all the little fuzzy things get burned away.

Then we die the yarn. Then we mercerize the yarn. Then we knit the pattern. Then we bathe the piece; the machine that does that costs $3 million. Most vendors don’t want to spend that kind of money on a mercerization machine.

GC: Approximately what are your shirts retailing for in a pro shop?

RM: The solid shirts will generally retail at $80-$85. And they’ll retail the fancies from $90-$100.

GC: What we talked about on the phone a few weeks ago… you buy one of your shirts and they last for 6 years. Compare that to spending $40 for a cheaper cotton shirt and after 3 washings, the collars are rolling and curling. So I think your shirts are a better value.

Well, you’ve got customers here so I won’t take up any more of your time. Good luck to you and Teri. I wish you every success with your company.

Hmmm, so if your shirts hardly shrink, I’m thinking I should be looking at mediums instead of larges … if you catch my drift. Wink, wink. Thanks, Rick.

(laughter)

RM: Thank you.

Wolfie: "Hey, where's MY Martin Golf shirt?"

**********************************************************************************

Rick Preeper & Doug Buffett

Golf Conversations: It was fun playing with you guys today. Let’s talk a little about your beautiful golf course. Tell me how the whole thing started.

Rick Preeper: The ski hill has existed here for 44 years and 20, 25 years ago, people were talking about a 9-hole golf course to augment the ski hill. Skiing in Cape Breton is a 3-month industry. If we’re lucky, we ski end of December to March. So you have this infrastructure and facilities and it’s not in use for 9 months of the year.

GC: Is this something the community got together about or was this a private effort?

RP: It was more a community thing. It originated with the Board of Directors of the ski hill. It probably had at least 3 starts and stops. Every time somebody started to move it forward, something would happen. Either the economy would go into the tank … or there’d be talk of another golf course in Inverness or someplace else.

Tom McBroom did a design here in the early ‘90s. But that fell by the wayside. Then somebody else came in and we’d talk a little bit. The last time, we called in four Canadian course architects: McBroom, Graham Cooke, Les Furber, and Doug Carrick.

They came in on their own dime, walked the area, and deemed it a wonderful spot for a golf course. They all wanted the job of designing it. So we had a little contest, for lack of a better word, and Graham Cooke was asked to design the course.

GC: What year was this?

RP: The summer of 2005 is when the designers came here to look at the property. So it was the fall of 2005 when we made our decision.

GC: Had the land been acquired already?

RP: No.

GC: So you had no land, just an idea for a golf course?

RP: Basically. We knew that we were going to get the land that the ski hill is on through a lease agreement. The government owned another two large sections of land on both sides.

GC: Nova Scotia?

RP: The Nova Scotia government and the federal government owned part. We knew we were getting that because it was set aside as recreational land anyway. They had already agreed that if we came in with a design and a business plan that they could sign off on, they’d give us the land.

GC: Give?

RP: Yeah.

GC: “Give” is good.

(laughter)

RP: Yup. Then there were thirteen private land owners that we had to deal with in order to get their land.

GC: So you had to hire thugs, break their windows, set fires in their backyards?

(laughter)

RP: Almost to a person, they are very civic-minded people and they saw the benefit of this concept of having a Ben Eoin recreational area. A couple played a little bit of hardball with us…

GC: That’s when you brought Doug in.

(laughter)

Doug Buffett: I was the muscle.

(laughter)

RP: Doug was the enforcer.

(laughter)

Other than one lady who tried to strong-arm us into giving her a ridiculous amount of money, everything else went pretty smoothly.

GC: Were the people who owned the land living on it as well?

RP: There were three homeowners who got a little bit more money. But for the most part, the landowners were allowed to keep the first 700 feet of their property. We wanted the back portion of the property which was woods and swamp and hills … land that the owners weren’t going to use anyway.

GC: I found a lot of those hills and swamps when we were playing today.

(laughter)

I did a very thorough surveying job.

(laughter)

DB: You got to see it all!

GC: I saw all of it. Yes, I’m glad you saved that part of the property.

(laughter)

RP: Graham Cooke, when he found out we weren’t getting some particular pieces of land, he had to make a change in the design on the front nine.

DB: We opened last year. It took a while to get it all built.

GC: How many years to build it?

RP: We started construction in the summer of 2007. We were planning on opening in August of 2009 but we got inundated with heavy rains in the fall of 2008 and the spring of 2009. In one case, we got 120 ml (7+ inches) of rain in a 24-hour period…

DB: Just when the grass was at a vulnerable phase.

RP: Washed away 2 ½ holes. But we did open in May 7, 2010.

GC: That must have been exciting.

DB: We had the first tee off!

RP: Yeah, Doug and I teed off first.

DB: I was in the first trap.

GC: Good man, Doug!

(laughter)

DB: I had the first slice, I was in the woods the first time.

(laughter)

GC: They should list all these achievements on a plaque and hang it here in the clubhouse.

(laughter)

Rick, do you remember your first shot?

RP: Down the middle.

GC: Down the middle. There’s always a showoff in the group.

(laughter)

RP: Graham Cooke is a golfer. He has ten Canadian championships at different levels. And we liked the fact that an excellent golfer was selected to design the course.

GC: Did you have any financing problems?

RP: Cape Breton is – I wouldn’t say a depressed area – but we don’t have a lot of industry here. We used to have steel mills, mining, and fishing. Those industries basically died in the last 20 years. So it’s not a boom area.

We got 120 investors, each putting in a minimum of $40,000. Some put in $50-60,000.

GC: People from the area?

RP: People from the area. Business people. But we were lucky: because it’s an economically deprived area, we have certain tax benefits. So we could do it through an RSP, a Registered Savings Plan, and get tax benefits from that. The Province of Nova Scotia would give you 30% because it was a local investment for employment purposes.

GC: Give you 30%?

RP: 30% of whatever your investment was. So if your investment was $40,000, you would get $12,000 back from the Provincial government. And you could claim that on your federal income tax and get another 30-40%. So out of your own pocket, you might pay $10-12,000 for a $40,000 investment.

GC: OH, MY GOD …THAT’S SOCIALISM!!!!

(laughter)

DB: That’s Canada.

(laughter)

RP: That’s Canada. That’s how we get things done.

GC: I’m ready to move here.

RP: We wouldn’t have had a golf course if not for that.

GC: Shameful!

(laughter)

Doug Buffet, Robert Blumenthal & Rick Preeper

DB: Cape Breton is a major tourist destination. It’s been rated one of the top-ten islands of the world in terms of beauty. And you’ll see that as you go north.

RP: Cape Breton is rated as the number one destination island in North America. Number three in the world.

GC: What’s number one? The 17^th at TPC Sawgrass?

(laughter)

RP: Probably Hawaii.

DB: What I was getting at … the government’s vision was that if we could make it a golf destination, they would get behind it. And they continue to do so. There are several other golf courses that you’re going to see that the government is involved in.

GC: Build golf courses. That’s my kind of government!

DB: Are you going to Inverness also? Will you be going to Cabot Links?

GC: I am. That’s going to be my last stop. I’m going to Bell Bay today, play there tomorrow. Then up to Highlands Links, then Le Portage, then down to Cabot Links.

DB: And you were at Dundee?

GC: Yes, they chased me out of there yesterday.

(laughter)

Was there any local input when Graham Cooke was designing the course or did you just let him do his thing?

RP: More or less let him do his thing. Some of us were walking around with him and talking with him. He brought in a shaper by the name of Dan Marchand who is an artist. Graham has used him a number of times. Graham would tell him: “Here’s the type of topography I want to see on this particular hole.” And Dan would know exactly what he wanted.

Dan would produce it. Graham would come down every month or so and do a walkabout. And very little had to be changed. There’s very, very little earth moved on this site. Graham Cooke, I guess, could be described as a “minimalist” when it comes to making changes.

I used to walk around with him and he’d see an iconic type of a tree – a big elm for example – and he would design around that.

GC: It’s amazing how those guys can be standing in the middle of a forest and they can see golf holes.

DB: It is amazing. A lot of architects don’t look at the local environment at all. They manufacture a golf course: they plow it, make hills where there weren’t hills, make valleys where there weren’t valleys. The minimalist idea is using the environment that’s there and just gently shaping it. We liked that idea much more than forcing it into the environment.

That’s why this course has 18 unique holes. It’s basically built on 3 plateaus. With the exception of Number 6 — where you’re going down from the top plateau to the next plateau — you’re playing along plateaus.

GC: It doesn’t seem like a typical mountain course. Since the course has been open, what’s the buzz been?

RP: Absolutely positive. We knew we had a good course. But we didn’t know how good. Aesthetically, a lot of people like the course. Beautiful views. What I really like though … those who are golfers and understand the game, appreciate the shot values, appreciate the golf experience that they have here. This is something you can play day after day after day and never get tired of. There are 18 different holes, and unfortunately, 100 different golf shots you can play.

GC: You’re not looking at me when you say that?

(laughter)

RP: I’m looking at me, most days!

(laughter)

GC: I was very impressed with the course. Aside from the aesthetics – which are just fabulous, you’re right: each hole does seem to be its own unique entity.

RP: The course can stretch from 4900 yards from the shortest tees to 7000 yards from the longest tees.

GC: Are most of the people who golf here from the area or tourists?

RP: It’s about 50-50.

DB: In July, August, and September we get a lot of tourists. And we want them – that’s part of our business plan.

GC: Sure.

DB: Most of the population of Cape Breton is in the Sydney area. You go up north and you’re going to very small villages. So we have a membership base here at The Lakes; the northern Cape Breton golf courses depend almost entirely on tourists.

We have two large First Nation’s communities — Indian communities — that we market to who like to play golf. As you know, it’s a tough business. I remember when I was playing down at Edisto Beach in South Carolina, I was talking to the owner of a golf course and he said the average golf course in the United States doesn’t make money until the third bankruptcy.

He got his course at something like 25 cents on the dollar and now he’s doing okay. So it’s a tough business. You’d better have a marketing plan. You can’t just build it and they’re all going to come.

GC: The game has changed.

DB: It’s matured. It’s not growing as fast as it was.

GC: People have so many other things to do. To play golf requires a commitment of time: time to play, time to practice, time to sit at the bar…

(laughter)

DB: And don’t you think there’s been a tendency to make golf courses more and more difficult? Who wants to spend 5-6 hours to get pummeled and humiliated?

GC: Sounds like the last time I visited my in-laws.

(laughter)

DB: And pace of play is also an issue. So we’ve tried to encourage people to play from the right set of tees so they could have fun and get around in 4, 4 ½ hours.

GC: I noticed that your scorecard recommends which tees to play from based on your handicap. That’s very smart. I’ve never seen that before.

DB: The average golfer shoots over 100.

GC: More than that.

DB: Most golfers should be playing from where I was playing this morning. But the natural tendency is you want to be a He-man and go to the back tees.

GC: Are you familiar with the Tee-It Forward program that Barney Adams started?

DB: Yes. I think it’s a good idea. People will have more fun and they’ll get around quicker.

GC: It’s a hard game to learn and it’s very intimidating when you first start out.

DB: Yes, it is.

GC: It’s embarrassing, it’s frustrating, and it’s humiliating. (pause) But it’s a lot of fun, isn’t it?

(laughter)

DB: One of the things we’ve been concentrating on is getting women to play. We have a program for women that’s also become a social function. Women that have never golfed before feel comfortable to come to the course.

Probably 70% of the ladies that are in the Ladies League are non-members. They’re just people like my wife who want to come out and learn the game and have some fun and socialize.

DB: And perhaps we can then ease them into a membership.

RP: But we’re keeping the pressure off them as much as we can. On the Ladies League night, there are no men allowed on the course. So they’re not intimidated; no one’s hitting over their heads or making them play faster.

GC: I like that idea. And I also like the idea of having a golf course that’s canine friendly.

DB: You know what? That’s a great revenue source because if you have a dog that’s sitting in the seat, you’re gonna rent twice as many golf carts.

(laughter)

A foursome’s gonna have to have four golf carts for the four dogs!

(laughter)

GC: Ok, guys, you take this idea and run with it. See, my coming here wasn’t a total loss!

(laughter)

So after here, I’m off to Baddeck and I’ll make a Facebook post about my golfing experience at The Lakes. I’ll try to come up with something nice to say about you two guys…

(laughter)

RP: Lie if you have to!

(laughter)

DB: There’s five bucks in it for you if you lie.

GC: I’ll take two toonies and a loonie! I learned that today on the course from the beverage cart girl!

(laughter)

[Patrick Laderoute, the Golf Operations Manager at The Lakes, comes by to say hello.]

Patrick Laderoute: Did you like the course?

GC: I loved it! I really enjoyed the course. I started off on the back nine, I was playing by myself … then I ran into these two…

(laughter)

DB: We have a new nickname for him.

RP: “One putt.”

(laughter)

PL: Oh, yeah? That’s a good nickname.

DB: He was making 20, 30-foot putts.

GC: I don’t know what happened out there … but I could see playing here the rest of my life.

(laughter)

If I could putt like that all the time…

DB: It would be worth moving here.

RP: Next time we have a scramble, he’s coming up from North Carolina.

GC: I did inquire about International Memberships.

(laughter)

PL: We’ve got ‘em.

GC: Do you? I’ll have to talk to my wife about this.

PL: What was your favorite hole? Or is it hard to remember?

GC: I did love that signature hole, the downhill hole with the amazing view of the lake.

PL: That’s 6.

The Lakes Golf Club 6th Hole

DB: And he had a great drive right over the traps. A little flip wedge in. Routine par.

GC: I think I’m falling in love with you guys!

(laughter)

PL: I’ve heard multiple times a day from visitors, “You have no idea what you’ve got here.” I’m amazed at the number of people who take the time to come by and tell me that.

GC: You also have some interesting underbrush and trees.

(laughter)

And this guy, Rick … what an eagle eye! He found all of my wayward shots in the woods.

PL: That’s why our ball sales are down!

(laughter)

GC: It’s a beautiful facility, gentlemen. Your community got together and built a gorgeous golf course. You should be proud. Thanks again for the hospitality.

*********************************

The Lakes Golf Club was the second of six magnificent golf courses I visited during my tour of Cape Breton Island in Nova Scotia. You can read about this excellent golfing adventure by clicking here.

Golf Conversations: I have to admit, I’m a little confused. There’s “Golf 20/20”, there’s “Golf 2.0”, there’s all kinds of twos and zeros floating around regarding growing the game of golf. So please, tell me what you do…

Cathy Harbin: Enlighten you?

(laughter)

GC: Yes, please. Enlighten me.

CH: “Golf 20/20” is my gig. I’m the Executive Director of “Golf 20/20” and have been for about three years. “Golf 20/20” was formed in 2000.

GC: More twos and zeros!

(laughter)

CH: The intent was to increase awareness and participation in the game of golf. We have been fairly successful during that time period. The question might get asked, “We still see this decline, how successful have you been?”

The answer to that is, “What if we hadn’t been out there trying to do what we’re doing? Maybe the decline would have been greater.”

Again, the intent was to try to introduce programs to golf courses across the country that actually helped golf courses generate new players and new rounds. We’ve had different programs that have worked for different facilities.

In November of 2008, “Golf 20/20” introduced one program. We said: “This is the program that everyone should use to bring people into the game.” And that program is called “Get Golf Ready in 5 Days.”  So for three full years now, we’ve been promoting and running this program, “Get Golf Ready in 5 Days.” It’s been highly successful.

GC: “Get Golf Ready in 5 Days.” I like the sound of that. I wish they’d had that program in 1993 when I took up the game. I entered into a different program: “Get Golf Ready in 19 Years.”

(laughter)

CH: The PGA of America has been very involved in the program; they run the infrastructure of the web site. We did a study through the National Golf Foundation about a year and a half ago. We wanted to find out, “Hey, are we making any difference? Are there really people out there who want to play golf or are we dreaming this?”

GC: Yes.

CH: Or are we spinning our wheels trying to get new people in the game when the general public is saying, “Thanks, but no thanks.” We did what we called a “latent demand study.”

GC: My therapist says I’ve got that.

(laughter)

CH: The study came back and the sample size was over three years – 40,000 people.

GC: For you folks keeping track at home, that’s 10,000 foursomes.

(laughter)

CH: It came back that there were 27 million people who said they’re either “very or somewhat interested” in playing golf.

GC: Cool.

CH: Another 50 million said they’re “mildly interested” but we just focused on the 27 million. And there’s 150 million that said “we don’t have any interest at all.”

GC: And then there are 200 million who said, “I’m very interested in searching for lost balls while Blumenthal watches me from the fairway.”

(laughter)

But seriously, those are some good stats.

CH: Good numbers. So it answered that question.

GC: “Get Golf Ready” is doing well. Good for you.

CH: It answered the question: “Do people even care about playing the game?”  So three years later, what we can track is that players are staying in the game: 80% of the graduates are staying in the game in the first year. 75% the second year, and around 65% the third year. Not only that, but they’re playing a lot of golf.

GC: Fabulous.

CH: Which is great. We define a “core golfer” as someone who plays 8+ rounds a year. An “avid golfer” is 25+ rounds. Every single year, the students have played somewhere between 10 and 14 rounds of golf.

GC: And how is the “Get Golf Ready” program promoted? How do people find out about it? Especially people who know nothing about golf.

CH: We focused on a grass roots marketing campaign. You’re familiar with the expression, “All politics is local”? Well, all marketing for this program is locally driven. So far we have 1800 certified facilities. We’ve been a little cautious about going national and getting people excited and not having facilities in their area yet.

We’re working with the PGA Tour also. I think a lot of people say, “Why do a PSA with the PGA Tour; you’re already speaking with golfers”?

GC: PSA? Are you talking about that prostate test?

(laughter)

CH: Public Service Announcement! There are a lot of people – somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 million people – who watch golf and don’t play.

GC: And who finances all of the marketing and administration costs?

CH: It’s an industry-wide program. We have about 65 investors from the industry. All the manufacturers, golf course management companies, and individuals have contributed to it. It runs the gamut of people that have a stake in the industry.

GC: The beverage cart girls, too?

(laughter)

So you need to do fundraising, obviously.

CH: Correct.

GC: Is this an ongoing thing, always trying to get someone to write a check for you?

CH: Well, we ask for three-year pledges.

GC: Get enough for three years and then come back three years later?

CH: Yes. It lets us put the fundraising behind us and focus on running the program.

GC: No wonder I can’t make a nickel from this damn web site. I’m not asking for the money upfront!

(laughter)

CH: The good news is that in three years, the participants are spending an extra $900 after they graduate for equipment and more rounds of golf. So we can track the additional revenue to the industry: $61.3 million. Those are hard numbers that people have reported to us. No extrapolation. So the program’s working.

GC: Extrapolation?  Keep it clean, Cathy.

(laughter)

CH: It took me a while to learn the word. And now I have to use it!

(laughter)

GC: Use it? I’d like to hear you spell it!

(laughter)

I was reading a little bit about the “Get Golf Ready” program. It’s 99 bucks?

CH: Yup.

GC: For 5 lessons?

CH: Yup. “Fun, fast and affordable.” That’s our motto.

GC: That’s a great deal. I’d like to forget everything I’ve learned about golf and start over again for 99 bucks!

(laughter)

CH: Did you ever see that show where they wave a wand in front of you and you forget everything you knew before that? That’s what you need.

GC: Oh, man, I’d love one of those! They should be selling one of those down on the convention floor here. If they can convince golfers to wear ion bracelets to give them energy, why not a magic wand that makes you forget every golf tip you’ve ever heard?

(laughter)

CH: The golf magazines and the videos are ok. Just don’t listen to your buddies.

GC: Well, that goes without saying!

(laughter)

Anyway, so when you boil it down, “Golf 20/20” is really the “Get Golf Ready” program?

CH: Currently, it is. That’s the main focus.

GC: So it has nothing to do with your eyesight?

(laughter)

CH: It does not! You can wear glasses and be in the program.

GC: So who is behind Golf 2.0?

CH: The industry as a whole. It’s being led by the PGA of America, but the industry is totally supporting it: National Golf Course Owners, LPGA, Club Managers Association, Golf Course Superintendent’s Association, World Golf Foundation are all behind what Golf 2.0 is doing. It’s a very strategic way to increase participation in golf.

GC: But they’re not saying to “Golf 20/20”, “You guys should come in with us and let us administer this?”

CH: The Get Golf Ready Program, we are actually moving that over to Golf 2.0. And “Golf 20/20” will still do what it does: our mission is to incubate programs. To try them out, pilot them, then hand them off to the association most likely to be able to successfully run them in the future. We did that with the National School Program.

GC: So you’re doing other things besides Get Golf Ready?

CH: Right.

GC: You’re experimenting with other things.

CH: Yes, trying to find that magical thing that’s really going to make a difference in increasing participation.

GC: Well, this is your lucky day, Cathy.

(laughter)

CH: Oh, good.

GC: Because I have a new program that you guys can test.

Robert Blumenthal & Cathy Harbin

CH: I want to hear it. I’m ready!

GC: Ok. First of all, if you decide to do this, we’re not using any twos or zeros. No two-oh this, two-point that.

(laughter)

There are 77 million dog owners in this country. And you told me before that you’re a dog lover.

CH: Yes.

GC: If you could have brought your dog to the convention today, would you have done so?

CH: Yes.

GC: I have a dog also. We take him to restaurants. We take him to the bank, the dry cleaner, to Lowe’s. Dog lovers love going places with their dogs.

CH: You’re correct.

GC: As you may know, in England, Scotland, and Ireland … many golf courses allow you to bring your dog with you. US Open Champion Graeme McDowell, when he’s back home, he’s walking the course with his dog.

CH: On a leash or not on a leash?

GC: I think in his case, not on a leash. I don’t think he’s on a leash.

(laughter)

CH: You could be right.

GC: When I go to the driving range at home, I’ll bring my dog, Wolfie, with me. He’s very well behaved. He sits quietly, watches the golf carts go by, watches the geese waddle around and crap on the grass.

Now just imagine if you could take a small percentage of those 77 million dog owners who never thought of playing golf. And you told them that they could bring their dog with them … that might be kind of fun.

So what I’m suggesting – and this is the germ of the idea – you work with a golf course and the local animal shelter. You tell them you’re having a Doggy Day at Blank Golf Course on February 15^th: “Bring your dog with you to the golf course. You’ll get a free group golf lesson. The dogs will get treats.” And maybe, just maybe, you’ll hook some people who never hit a golf ball before. Of course, you need to have a well-behaved dog.

CH: You have to have a well-behaved dog to go to PetSmart, too.

GC: That’s correct! In England, if the course allows dogs … you have to bring the dog into the Secretary’s office and demonstrate that the dog can be controlled by voice command. So crazy dogs are not allowed, dogs that bite other dogs or people aren’t allowed. The dog needs to be up-to-date with his shots.

You can walk with the dog on the course or let him ride in the cart. There are just so many dog owners who love to do things with their pets. Maybe they’d enjoy being in the beautiful outdoors with their dogs. Wouldn’t it be cool to play golf with your dog?

CH: It would be very cool. I’ve taken my dog out on the golf course because I’m the manager of the golf course so I get to do that. When I had a golf course under construction before it was open, I took my dog out there when I played.

GC: What’s your dog’s name?

CH: I have two dogs, actually. One’s called Taylor – from Taylor-Made. The other is called Max … from Max-fli!

(laughter)

So they’re golf names but they’re not obvious golf names. One’s a husky-shepherd mix and one’s a border collie.

Taylor

Max

GC: Not only would it be fun for the dogs to be with you on the golf course, I think it would help you as a golfer. If Taylor is sitting there in the cart by the green and you just four-putted … instead of being angry, you look at the dog who’s wagging his tail at you and the four-putting doesn’t seem so important anymore.

CH: Robert, that is an excellent idea. Especially if you started it off with just a day.

GC: It has to start small for sure.

CH: Sunday afternoon at 2.

GC: Anytime when it’s not busy at the course. If there’s anything I can do to help you with this idea, please call on me. There are a zillion dog lovers in this industry.

CH: You’re right.

GC: Including Jim Flick. He told me, “I am pathetically in love with my dog, Charlie.” So I think there are a lot of important people in golf who could get behind this. It might spark some interest.

CH: Excellent idea, Robert.

GC: Ok, if you want to sign me on as a consultant for just $10,000 a month…

CH: You would take it?

GC: I would take it but I’m telling you right now: I’m not releasing my tax returns!

(laughter)

Get Golf Ready starts in the springtime each year?

CH: It’s going on right now in the South. In Orlando, I’m sure there are Get Golf Ready classes all over the place today.

GC: Does it go all year ’round?

CH: Yes, it’s all year-round for the golf courses that operate 12 months a year. The golf courses run it in a variety of ways; they might run five days in a row or 1 hour five weeks in a row, or Tuesday/Thursday/Tuesday/Thursday. They run their own programs and people are teaching all year ’round.

GC: Do you guys supply the signage?

CH: We give them the posters and the brochures. And tips for running it successfully and tips for retention. It’s been very successful and the courses really love it.

GC: Good for you. Congratulations.

CH: Thank you.

GC: What if someone who’s reading this is interested in participating…

CH: Finding out more?

GC: Is there a web site?

CH: Definitely. www.GetGolfReady.com. Put your zip code in and it’ll tell you the facilities in your area that are hosting this program.

GC: Perfect. Thank you for helping to grow the game we love.

CH: Thank you for the dog idea.

GC: Woof!

Masun Denison

Golf Conversations: I think these spikeless golf shoes are the wave of the future.

Masun Denison: Yep.

GC: In between my third and fourth toe, I always get a pressure blister after a round of golf. Obviously, there’s something about soft spikes that’s doing something funky to my toes. I had the same problem years ago when I wore metal spikes.

My Left Foot

I’ve got hammer toes, flat feet… bad stuff going on there. So it’s really important for me to have comfortable golf shoes. I think I may have told you … I was out in Bandon Dunes in August.

MD: Beautiful place.

GC: Of course, you have to walk.

MD: Great test of shoe comfort at Bandon. Hilly and you have to walk.

GC: So the first day, I wore my Eccos with soft spikes. The ground there is very hard. They want it to play like a links course so they don’t water it often. After the first day, my feet were killing me. I was limping. I wore running shoes the next three days.

So these spikeless shoes of yours –  they’re called adicross?

MD: adicross, yeah.

GC: I was holding out a lot of hope for them.

MD: And?

GC: Took ‘em out of the box Tuesday. Wore them to the airport. Walked around Orlando Tuesday night. Wednesday, walked around at Demo Day at Orange County National … walked on the grass, did some short game stuff in the bunkers.

MD: Isn’t the grip good?

GC: Wonderful!

MD: You’d think you’re giving up a lot of traction. You’re really not.

GC: No, you’re not. Of course, they were still new shoes and at the end of the day my feet hurt.

MD: Even in a tennis shoe, if you’re wearing something all day, you’re gonna be a little tired.

GC: But I didn’t have blisters! That was the most important thing.

MD: That’s nice.

GC: And today here at the show, I walked up and down the Convention Center a few times and no blisters as of 3pm. I was even able to run in the shoes when Security chased me out of the Media Center.

(laughter)

MD: Golf for so long has been a traditional sport. Shoes gotta look a certain way, you’ve got to have cleats in them. Used to be you had to have metal spikes. Everyone loved that click-click-click sound. Then soft spikes – that’s a spike that actually flexes so we went to that.

That enhanced comfort for a while because the spike gave a little bit. But you still had a piece of plastic on the bottom of your shoe making contact with the ground. And if you have six or seven cleats, your whole body weight is basically carried on those points. And it drives up through the sole.

Through modern technologies and some of the new inlay soles, we can cover some of that pressure but your shoes are still going to be heavier and less flexible because of the cleats … and the discs that have to house those cleats.

People are starting to see now the benefits of what you noticed … which is, if you can remove the cleats and receptacles from the shoe – but still provide enough grip for the golf course – your shoe’s going to be lighter, more flexible, more versatile, and more comfortable. And I think people are now saying that it doesn’t need to look traditional anymore either. So it can be sporty. Which really plays into what adidas is all about.

GC: I think it’s pronounced Ahdee-daz.

MD: Yes. You’ve been to Germany then?

GC: No, I interviewed you a year and a half ago. You told me it’s pronounced Ahdee-daz!

(laughter)

MD: In the U.S., I usually say Uh-deediz because everyone else knows it that way…

GC: But you’re with me now! I know the lingo.

(laughter)

MD: Ok, if I’m with you, Robert, then we’ll say Ahdee-daz.

GC: Please, otherwise I’ll have to report you to headquarters.

(laughter)

When I returned from my Bandon trip, I gave up on golf shoes and wore my running shoes exclusively. Comfortable but they still look like running shoes. And if you’re playing at a nice club, a nice resort, and you come off the 18^th green, you look like a schlub wearing running shoes.

MD: Yeah.

GC: With my upscale image in the golf industry, I can’t afford to look like a bum, Masun. But these adicross look lovely. They’re stylish.

MD: They’re sporty. That’s what Uh-deediz – Ahdee-daz, excuse me…

(laughter)

Ahdee-daz is a sports brand, but to your point, you can walk off the golf course, go to dinner, hang out with your friends at the bar. Even get in your car and drive to a restaurant. It still feels right; it’s got that crossover appeal.

GC: Tell me a bit about the design process. When did you guys start to think, “Hey, we should get into this spikeless shoe thing?”

MD: That’s an interesting question …

GC: OF COURSE IT’S INTERESTING!  I’M ASKING IT!

(laughter)

MD: We’ve been doing spikeless shoes for a long time. We were doing spikeless shoes in 2005, 2006.

GC: For golf?

MD: For golf. We had shoes like the Moto Cardiff, the Moto Del Mar. You wouldn’t remember these names. They were spikeless, they didn’t have cleats. They were almost ahead of their time because people back then weren’t quite ready for this shift in attitudes.

Then, of course, we had the phenomenon with Freddie [Couples] wearing that Ecco shoe. That really gave it an arena. Just having him win and being the cool guy that he is…

GC: Freddie can make having a colonoscopy cool.

(laughter)

MD: People thought, “Wow, I can be cool and golf?” So we went back to the drawing board and said, “Ok, we’ve been making spikeless shoes for a while but let’s tweak it a little bit.” There were some spikeless shoes out there that were very traditional. We wanted to make ours right for us.

It feels nice to wear coming out of the box. There’s no real “break-in” factor. We call it the EOB System: “Eighteen Holes Out of the Box.” Every shoe in our line, you can take out of the box and wear it eighteen holes.

GC: Wait. Wouldn’t that be 18OB?

(laughter)

What if you’re only playing 9 holes? Then what?

MD: Then they’re even better.

GC: So then it would be NOB … or 9OB.

(laughter)

MD: But we’ve done spikeless shoes since 2004. They did ok, mostly in Japan. Japan was really the frontrunner for spikeless. 50% of their market was spikeless in 2005, 06, 07. Because golf for them is an all-day thing.

When we go there, you hit balls, you eat breakfast, you play 9 holes and take a break.You sit down for an hour and eat lunch. And often times when you’re on the course, you’re waiting as much as you’re playing. I know play can be long in the U.S.; it’s dreadfully long there. Six-hour rounds are not uncommon.

So people are on their feet a lot. So spikeless really caught on in Japan. Then it took off in the U.S. in 2010 with Ecco and Freddie.

What we wanted to do with ours was make it a little bit more of a price point that people could get after. $140 for a spikeless product? A lot of people thought that that was a little high.

GC: Yes.

MD: So we came in with ours at the $90 price point – with a leather upper. What we didn’t know was that Justin Rose would wear it on tour. That surprised us. He wasn’t supposed to wear that shoe.

GC: Why not?

MD: Up to that point – this was a couple of months ago – our tour strategy was: always make sure the pros are in the most expensive products that have all of the stability features. Justin happens to have some foot issues. His podiatrist told him, “You need a shoe that’s softer, you need your foot to start flexing more. Your foot’s a little too rigid and those shoes that are a little stiffer aren’t good for you.”

I don’t know if he went and bought them because we certainly didn’t send them to him. So the Friday of the BMW, I look up at the TV that’s on in the office. And I’m thinking, “What is he wearing???”

And I get closer to the TV screen and I’m going, “Oh my God, he’s wearing our $90 shoe!” It was raining on Sunday when he was leading and I’m thinking, “This isn’t a waterproof shoe so his foot’s probably really wet and he might slip.”

He goes on to win the tournament. Even though it’s not a fully waterproof shoe, he said his foot was barely wet after raining all day. And he didn’t slip once. And the phone started going off the hook. Orders went up 40%; my forecast doubled. It was the best accident that ever happened for us.

GC: Did you ever find out where he bought the shoes or where he got them from?

MD: The Friday pair he got from someone in sports marketing but it was kind of an under-the-table deal: “Hey can you just grab me a pair?” He didn’t even say if he was going to wear them in the tournament.

He wanted a second color and this was right about the time that they had just come out so we were limited on inventory. We actually took a pair off a guy’s feet in the office…

(laughter)

… we said, “We need those 10½s because Justin wears a 10½.” He literally gave us his shoes; he’d only worn them for a day.

GC: I’ve heard of giving someone the shirt off your back…

MD: He gave the shoes off his feet. He did a team move there. And we sent them to the tournament and he won on Sunday in someone else’s shoes from the office. How cool is that?

GC: That’s pretty cool. So did the guy in your office who gave his shoes to Justin Rose get a bonus?

MD: He did. We gave him three new pairs of shoes.

GC: If Justin Rose’s podiatrist ever saw my feet, he’d start licking his chops. Let me show you some bad feet.

(laughter)

[I remove my shoe and sock.]

"I am not an animal! I am a human being!"

MD: Uh, oh!

GC: I have – on my left big toe – a little bit of arthritis. Plus I’ve got these hammer toes that are jammed together and blister easily in golf shoes. So these spikeless shoes you’ve got, I love ‘em! I’d rather spend my money on golf shoes than help my podiatrist make his boat payment.

(laughter)

MD: You talk about your toes … the new shoe that we’re coming out with is called Puremotion. Have you seen those Vibram 5-finger shoes?

GC: I certainly have.

MD: There’s a phenomenon going on in the world of running. It’s also happening in basketball and soccer. There’s a lightweight, low-to-the-ground movement. Minimalist. And with the Vibram shoe, your toes can move individually.

We created a golf shoe that’s got flexibility right near the toe. You can actually grip with your toes when you’re swinging, following through, and walking. It’s a very flexible product. It activates more muscles. The shoe’s lighter because there’s less material there. Yes, your foot might be a little sore initially but you’re going to be stronger in the long run.

In the next couple of years, you’re going to see more flexible, lightweight shoes. Do you want to carry 2 pounds on each foot or 1 pound? And these PGA guys are on their feet 6,7,8 hours a day.

GC: It’s interesting how it took the shoe industry so long to figure that out. 20 years ago all these golfers were wearing leather Foot-Joys.

MD: Yeah, and when it’s wet out, they get heavier because they soak up water. I’ll tell you what the biggest hindrance has been, Robert. It’s been the acceptance of the style. Golf’s a very traditional sport so a lot of people think you need a dress shoe look with the high-end leathers and the wooden wedge outsole. They’re beautiful products, I love the look of those products. But the bottom line is: they’re not as comfortable, they’re heavier, they’re stiffer, and they’re hard on your feet.

GC: And Masun, take it from someone who is older than you…

MD: I thought you were younger than me.

GC: No. I have a dirtier mind than you…

(laughter)

MD: I wouldn’t doubt that.

(laughter)

GC: I’m 56 … things are breaking down, your feet start collapsing. The game is hard enough without coming home with aching feet. And I really don’t like paying for my podiatrist’s boat.

(laughter)

MD: There’s a perception that the older you get, you need more support. The stiffer a shoe is, the more your foot goes to sleep. It’s holding your foot in place and you can’t do anything with your foot. You’re not activating any of your muscles. So as you get older, you should be in a product that’s more flexible and lightweight.

GC: Have you read that book from a few years ago about the running Indians in Mexico?

MD: Born to Run.

GC: Yeah.

MD: I just read it about a month ago. I read it in two days ago, I was so intrigued by it. Have you read it?

GC: Yeah. You’ve got those Mexican Indians running dozens of miles a day in sandals. That tosses 30 years of running shoe technology out the window. They kept making the shoes stiffer and bigger and more supportive. Now it’s come full circle and the shoes are thin with no support.

MD: You started seeing professionals showing up for marathons and half marathons wearing these Vibram 5-finger deals. What did we do for the last few thousand years before we had shoes? We were barefoot. That’s what people did. Your foot is an architectural masterpiece. It’s got 30 joints, 17 muscles … it’s built to handle the load of your body but you need to condition it. So don’t let it go to sleep; put it in a shoe that’s light and flexible.

GC: I had the great fortune the other night of having dinner with Jim Flick.

MD: Nice.

GC: He was talking about the importance of footwork; the swing starts from the ground up with your feet. And he and Mr. Nicklaus …

MD: And Sam Snead, too.

GC: …and your feet need to be alive and roll. And the modern, “big muscle” golf swing is all about keeping your feet flat…

MD: …and just twisting.

GC: Maybe if you’re Justin Rose or you’re 14 years old you can do that. But I think the majority of golfers need more footwork.

MD: That leads to the Puremotion. I’ll tell you, Jim Flick is not the only one that’s a proponent of that. Mike Malaska, the 2011 PGA Teacher of the Year … he’s on staff with us. He came to one of our sales meeting and said, “I’ve been waiting for this for years.”

GC: Is Mr. Flick aware of this?

MD: Mr. Flick is completely excited about it. We’ve talked to him about it. He’s always been a proponent of feel: the more you can feel the ground the better.

GC: How would you compare the flexibility of the Puremotion to the adicross shoe?

MD: I would say adicross is very good. It’s much further towards flexibility than any other shoe in our line right now. But the Puremotion shoe will be the extreme end of flexibility.

GC: And Puremotion has not come out yet?

MD: No. That doesn’t come out until August 1^st.

GC: I’d be curious to see what those feel like because I think it’s a great idea. Send me a pair, will you? A new pair, please – not something you lifted off of Irving in Accounting.

(laughter)

How would you compare your adicross with the Ecco shoe? I know one is more expensive than the other.

MD: When you get to the spikeless market, a lot of it’s going to be what looks right to the consumer. You can’t get around style. Style’s always going to be there. I would say, in terms of price, Ecco’s price points are always a little bit higher. They use nice materials; Ecco makes a good shoe.

What I do like about ours: it’s a lot of shoe for 90 bucks. You step down from 140, which is what they charge, to 90 – you get a $50 savings, a leather shoe that’s worn on tour. And two-lace options.

GC: Yes, I noticed that two different colored laces came with the adicross. What is that?

adicross "Street"

MD: If you take your black shoe and put a black lace in it, it really tones the shoe down because it’s all black. You put the white lace in, it’s much more athletic.

But I would say the Ecco competes more with our Ashworth Cardiff shoe.

The Cardiff is $20 less than the Ecco. Ashworth signed 30 tour players for 2012 so we have a huge staff now. It’s a got a 2-year waterproof guarantee.

GC: The Cardiff?

Ashworth "Cardiff"

MD: Yeah. And the Ecco does not. It’s water resistant but not waterproof. We have a membrane in there.

GC: My membrane comes down when I listen to Johnny Miller on TV. Masun: I thank you and my feet thank you for your spikeless golf shoes. And for all of my readers with hammer toes, bunions, ingrown toenails, and arthritic tootsies, get your feet into some of these adidas shoes. Your podiatrist will hate you for it.

(laughter)

Robert Blumenthal & Masun Denison

*****************************************

For more information about the adidas “adicross” golf shoe, click this link.

For more  information about the Ashworth “Cardiff” golf shoe, click this link.